Cross The Ripper?

[MrBarnett]

Ed,

Sorry to labour the point, but how do you imagine electoral registration was carried out? All I have been able to discover is that it was the ERO's responsibility to 'canvass' the local electorate. I assume this either meant delivering a form through the post or knocking on the door to see who lived there. If it was the latter, then it could well have been Mrs L who provided the householder's name, occasionally forgetting the Allen.

No one denies that the family of the adult Charles knew itself as Lechmere. The point at issue is whether, as a 13 or 14 year old, Charles was sufficiently anal about it to insist that his working life began in that name rather than that of the stepfather who was very much alive at time and would have probably helped him secure his first job.

[MrBarnett]

Jon,

Perhaps I should bring MrsB along. She's no stranger to a glass or two of Pinot Grigio, so I could plant her in the WR first, then wearing my 'Silent Carman's ' I could leave Ed and his entourage at Doveton Street, carry out the experiment and be there waiting for them (Mrs B supine, but still very much alive close by) as they turn the corner into Durward Street.

MrB

[MrBarnett]

Jon,

Perhaps I should bring MrsB along. She's no stranger to a glass or two of Pinot Grigio, so I could plant her in the WR first, then wearing my 'Silent Carman's ' I could leave Ed and his entourage at Doveton Street, carry out the experiment and be there waiting for them (Mrs B supine, but still very much alive close by) as they turn the corner into Durward Street.

MrB

It goes without saying that for the sake of modesty Mrs B's clothing will be suitably adjusted before the arrival of the group. A small cloth cap will be discreetly left at her side for anyone who might like to help defray some of our out of pocket expenses.

[Jon Guy]

Perhaps I should bring MrsB along. She's no stranger to a glass or two of Pinot Grigio, so I could plant her in the WR first, then wearing my 'Silent Carman's ' I could leave Ed and his entourage at Doveton Street, carry out the experiment and be there waiting for them (Mrs B supine, but still very much alive close by) as they turn the corner into Durward Street.

That sounds like an excellent plan, Mr B.
Mrs B sounds like a good sport, the Blind Beggar has a nice beer garden where she can be comfortably planted.

[MrBarnett]

Jon,

The Blind Beggar might be a bit risky. When she's had a few she's not above remarking on complete strangers' weight and sexual orientation. Although if Ed has any of the hutzpah of his poster boy he could take a detour via Vallance Road and offer his punters a two for the price of one deal.

MrB

[Lechmere]

dulpicate

[Lechmere]

Mr B
You just moved the goalposts.
One minute you were talking about whether or not his wife gave people the name information rather than himself, and then you said the point at hand was what he called himself as a kid.

In the electoral register he is nearly always listed as Charles Allen Lechmere - but not absolutely always. Who gave the information to the electoral registration officers? My best guess that it would have been Charles Lechmere himself - probably via a form that they left if he was out at work.

It is an invention to suggest that Thomas Cross secured Charles Lechmere his job at Pickfords which wouldn't have been is first job. He would have been 17.
It is equally an invention to suggest that Thomas Cross secured Chares Lechmere whatever other job he did prior to this.
It is an invention to suggest that if Thomas Cross did assist in any way in Charles Lechmere getting a job that this would have resulted in Charles Lechmere calling himself Charles Cross.

During the period that Thomas Cross was bigamously married to his mother, we have three records to go on:
The christening of Charles Lechmere and his sister Emily in 1859 - when the children were named Lechmere.
The census of 1861 when the children are named Cross - but this wasn't a public document and the return would in all likelihood have been completed solely by Thomas Cross and quite possibly in a hurry.
The death certificate of Emily Lechmere in 1869 in which her name is given as Lechmere.

The weight of evidence suggests the were called Lechmere during this period.

You don't need silent shoes by the way.
Indeed your good lady should not be in the Blind Beggar as she would have to be extricated from that location which would unrealistically add to the time taken.

[Fisherman]

Monty: The Cross theory is irrelevant to the point, your comment upon that is just a mere defensive jibe, due to fact the theory isn't as convincing as you desire it.

By high ranking, I assume you are referring to Divisional ranking as opposed to Chief Constable and above? The qualifications were little different from today, and examinations were undertaken.

The Met and City police also maintained a close working relationship with Le Surete and the Parisian force, one of the leading detective organisations at the time, where they exchanged ideas and advanced the use of science in investigative methods.

I am referring to the likes of for example Henry Smith, who worked as a book-keeper and who then, and I quote "The complete Jack the Ripper", went on to be commissioned in Suffolk Artillery Militia, first as a man-about-town in care of his mother, thereafter as a sporting country gentleman in Northumberland. In 1879, at the age of 44, he began casting about for employment, preferably in the senior ranks of the police. He failed to gain appointments in Scotland, Newcastle and Liverpool, but 1885, at the age of 50, he was appointed chief superintendent of the City of London police.

You may think that translates into a longish and thorough education on matters police. I donīt. The Victorian society was one where you could get very far on no other credentials than a wealthy family and good connections.

And whilst Phrenology was looked at by Vidcoq in the mid 1800s, it was Bertillions scientific system of anthropometrics which was being used by 1888. So no, it was not a big factor of that era.

Quoting Dr John van Wyne at Cambridge university:

From Britain phrenology spread to America and France in the 1830s and in the1840s it was re-introduced to Germany. It became far more successful in America. Phrenology died away in Britain by the early 1850s but a new movement was re-introduced to Britain by the American "phrenological Fowlers" in the 1860s and 1870s. The Fowlers had begun lecturing and reading heads for fees in New York in the 1830s. Their phrenology was wholly borrowed from the British modifications of Gall's system. The Fowlers swept through Britain on a successful lecture tour before establishing various phrenological institutions, societies and publishing concerns. Less scientifically pretentious and more overtly entrepreneurial, it is largely this latter-day phrenology whose remnants are still seen today. A phrenological bust in an antique shop will almost invariably bear the label "L. N. Fowler". The latter phrenology movement was largley responsible for the A plaster bust by L.N. Fowler.anthropometric (head reading) craze of the latter 19th century and its well-known anthropological/racial concerns. The early phrenological movement was concerned more with providing practitioners with claims to epistemological certainty and intellectual authority than disscussing human races.
Phrenology evolved into wider and wider cultural space over time, beginning with Gall and the highest scientific and social and cultural elites, from Goethe to the king of Prussia, to the British and American scientifically pretentious middle-class phrenological societies of George Combe and finally to the disreputable practical "professors" of phrenology, reading heads for profit and the mass audiences of the Fowlers to the dawn of the 20th century. So-called "practical" phrenologists like the Fowlers, far outnmubered, in the long run, the interested medical men, the scientifically pretensious and theoretical phrenologists.

You are quite welcome to show me that Bertillon and his thoughts was the sole biometric method employed by British policemen. And in case you didnīt know, the Bertillonage was "a system for the identification of criminals making use of anthropometric measurements — including head size, arm span, scars, distinguishing features and the like." I trust you can see how this couples to phrenology?

All the best,
Fisherman

[MrBarnett]

I didn't really move the goalposts. There are two interrelated questions that haven't yet been satisfactorily answered in my 'umble opinion:

Do we have any evidence that CAL was 'anal' about his name?

And even if he became so in later life, would he have had the strength of character to insist on its use when, as a boy, he applied for his first job?

A few posts back I suggested that the electoral registration procedure was similar to today (or rather yesterday as I have received notification this morning that is has all changed) ie that a form was sent to him each year which he was legally obliged to fill out. You correctly challenged that, the legally obliged bit at least was wrong. But the point I was trying to make then was in respect of the number of records left by Lechmere. There was nothing proactive about his electoral registration, the authorities came to him. And would presumably keep knocking at the door until someone answered.

Having looked into the matter a bit further I have discovered that the Electoral Registration Officer's remit was to 'canvass' the electorate with reference to the rate books and his local knowledge. It is not clear to me whether a new form was delivered each year or whether the ERO's man called at each household to see whether there had been any change from the previous year and only where there had would he drop off a new form. Why waste all that paper and knock twice at every door when once would do in most cases?

Until we know the answer to this, we can't answer the first question above.

As for school records, as head of the household Charles's name may gave been entered in the school registers whether he was present or not. Yes there are some female names entered as parent or guardian, but they are in the minority. So unless we believe that all these Victorian working men took time off to take their kids to school on their first day we must assume that paternalism ruled the day.

The answer to the second question is easier to guess at least. Unless Charles's mother insisted on the use of the name Lechmere, then the main influence would have been the stepfather who identified the whole family as Cross in the census. He may have had nothing to go with Charles getting his first job, but I suspect he did. Especially if the job was as a van boy. Thefts from vans, often with the collusion of the van boy, were rife. So having a copper as a (step)father wound have been extremely useful to a young east ender at the start of his career.

MrB

[Fisherman]

Unless Charles's mother insisted on the use of the name Lechmere, then the main influence would have been the stepfather who identified the whole family as Cross in the census.
MrB

Isnīt the baptism in the name Lechmere - one year after Maria Lousia took up with Thomas Cross - a very good example that she did just that: insist on the Lechmere name? Who was "the main influence" in that matter, mr Barnett?

Did Thomas Cross agree to have the children baptised Lechmere in exchange for later on having the family calling them Cross?

the best,
Fisherman

[MrBarnett]

Isnīt the baptism in the name Lechmere - one year after Maria Lousia took up with Thomas Cross - a very good example that she did just that: insist on the Lechmere name? Who was "the main influence" in that matter, mr Barnett?

Did Thomas Cross agree to have the children baptised Lechmere in exchange for later on having the family calling them Cross?

the best,
Fisherman

The first point is very valid, Fish. But it can be countered by asking if (and it's not such a big if in my opinion) Thomas Cross had a hand in securing Charles's first job, then who would have been the main influence?

In my opinion, that Charles was known as Cross at Pickfords is the only scenario where the name anomaly makes sense.

The second point is rather silly - you didn't eat any of those magic beans, did you?

MrB

[Roy Corduroy]

Good morning MrB,

In my opinion, that Charles was known as Cross at Pickfords is the only scenario where the name anomaly makes sense.

That's what I thought too. But there is another equally good reason, that he gave the name Cross because he could. Just as the denizens of Buck's Row got their street name changed because they could. He used the name Cross to deflect attention away from himself and his loved ones. Because he could. Because no one cared. Because he didn't kill anyone. Because he was a carman who found the murdered woman on his way to work in the wee hours of the morning.

I voted Highly Unlikely

Roy

[Fisherman]

MrBarnett:

The first point is very valid, Fish. But it can be countered by asking if (and it's not such a big if in my opinion) Thomas Cross had a hand in securing Charles's first job, then who would have been the main influence?

Like Edward says, it is mere guesswork that Thomas Cross had anything to do with Charlesī first job. It is not guesswork that the children were baptised Lechmere. The two points are therefore a total mismatch.

Once again, just like Edward says, the weight of the evidence is in favour of Charles Lechmere calling himself and his family Lechmere throughout his life. What you do is to propose scenario after scenario that MAY all be correct - but they do not have that weight of evidence behind them. Frankly, Mr Barnett - whatīs the use?

In my opinion, that Charles was known as Cross at Pickfords is the only scenario where the name anomaly makes sense.

How can it NOT make sense in a scenario where he was the killer? To boot, there are the implications of him lying to Mizen, thereīs the pulled down dress, the timings, the failure to notice Paul until he stepped on Lechmereīs toes, his being found alone by a murder victim - and it still does not make sense to you?
You may be a long time coming as a convertite, Iīll say that much.

The second point is rather silly - you didn't eat any of those magic beans, did you?

Nope. I was just wondering if YOU would approve of the suggestion. You hold many views and doubts that I consider outright silly too, so the leap would not be a very substantial one to my mind.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Good morning MrB,



That's what I thought too. But there is another equally good reason, that he gave the name Cross because he could. Just as the denizens of Buck's Row got their street name changed because they could. He used the name Cross to deflect attention away from himself and his loved ones. Because he could. Because no one cared. Because he didn't kill anyone. Because he was a carman who found the murdered woman on his way to work in the wee hours of the morning.

I voted Highly Unlikely

Roy

I hadnīt thought of that - he used the name Cross because he could.

I may need to rethink the whole business now.

Or not.

The best,
Fisherman

[Lechmere]

To repeat.
Even if he had called himself Cross when he got his job at Pickfords when aged 17 then that would not explain why he chose to call himself Cross when dealing with authority as in ever single other recorded instance in his life, when dealing with any form of authority, the family name he chose to go under was Lechmere

His step father putting a good word in for him wouldn't particularly have a bearing on his use of Cross rather than Lechmere in any case.