So if you live in Bethnal Green, you won´t kill in Whitechapel?

[Abby Normal]

I have no idea what relevance Mitre Square not being on a direct route from Doveton Street (Mile End) to Broad Street has to the discussion.

Fish’s thinking is that Eddowes was killed on CAL’s day off and his familiarity with the Mitre Square area can from it being close to the route he would likely have taken before he moved to Doveton Street in 1888. A route he may have taken for over twenty years.

and Goulston is on his way back home from mitre square/pickfords

[Abby Normal]

Possibly, and Crow could have lied about the time he walked thru the door.

It`s interesting that The Crow (even the name is sinister) didn`t know if Tabram was dead or sleeping when he passes her, yet Reeves notices she is lying in a pool of blood.

yes I raised the same point. you would think he would have noticed something amiss with her-especially the way she was positioned.


I think Lechmere is a sinister name too-swamp of leeches lol

[Fisherman]

Batman: Why is "being found" standing beside a victim a better candidate than someone who was beside the victim and left her there without telling anyone!

It isn´t. But you are forgetting the full implications. Only Lechmere would have had reason to think that the victim he saw and examined was dead - Crow never touched the shape he saw, not was he able to make anything at all out in the darkness more than that somebody was on the floor. He was used to that, and had no reason to suspect foul play.
Furthermore, Lechmere was there at a remove in time which is consistent with him being the killer, something that - according to Killeen - Crow was not.
So once we look at things from a more realistic angle, the suspect value is massively on Lechmeres side.


Crow was a licenced cab driver who likely drove around Whitechapel.

And Lechmere was a carman who has a proven work trek that takes him close to or right by all the Spitalfields murder sites. Once again, Crow is outclassed.

Your claim is that the major routes are going passed murder sites. Well, then you need Crow as a licenced cab driver not going down any major routes ever to rule him out of the same claims you have for Cross.

No, I need him to have a verified reason for having been at the murder sites on the relevant hours, instead of driving his cab in Chelsea, Bow or somewhere else.
Discussion over, space wasted, let´s move on.

[MrBarnett]

Possibly, and Crow could have lied about the time he walked thru the door.

It`s interesting that The Crow (even the name is sinister) didn`t know if Tabram was dead or sleeping when he passes her, yet Reeves notices she is lying in a pool of blood.

He could have, but the cops will have knocked at his parents’ door and questioned them.

By the time Reeves found the body it was possibly getting light?

Yes the name is a bit sinister.😱

[MrBarnett]

and Goulston is on his way back home from mitre square/pickfords

Even more so if he goes via Haydon Square, but Bats has it on good authority that no one crossed Aldgate High Street that night.

[Fisherman]

I imagine that mixture of connections to Spitalfields, Whitechapel and St Georges would have been quite common.

I think you are probably completely correct, and so I agree. Then again, I believe you would agree with me that it is not until such a person is dug out and proven to have walked the same working trek area as Lechmere did at the same general hours that we can speak of a suspect that is equal to the carman in a geographical sense. Plus, of course, there is the small matter of having to have been found alone with a freshly killed murder victim on one of the Ripper sites.

To me, this cements Lechmere as the geographically most viable suspect there is. That is not the same as denying that others must have had links to Spitalfields, Whitechapel, St Georges - and the Mitre Square area. Some will have had just that, reasonably.

[Fisherman]

That's a very good point, Jon. Also Mitre Square is not on a direct route to Old Broad Street from Doveton Street. It's close by, but then just about everywhere in Whitechapel and The City is close by everywhere else in Whitechapel and The City, so that gets us nowhere.

It gets us a very long way, contrary to what you say. The murders could have been perpetrated anywhere, Seven Sisters, Bow, Chelsea, Mile End Old Town... anywhere!
And Lechmere could have worked anywhere, to the east, west, south or north.

But as it happens the two fields coincide to a tee. And it takes some coinciding, just because the area is a very small one.

So much as Mitre Square would have been very close to somebody trekking west from Berner Street, it would not have been close at all to somebody doing a trek up north.
There can be no trivializing the remarkable dovetailing between the murder sites and Lechmere´s likely and proven paths.

[Jon Guy]

He could have, but the cops will have knocked at his parents’ door and questioned them.

But he may well have walked through his front door at 3.30, as he says.

By the time Reeves found the body it was possibly getting light?

Yes, possibly, or.. if The Crow was telling the truth, there was no pool of blood (the bit that made Reeves notice her) when he passed. The pool may have appeared after The Crow had gone by.

[Fisherman]

21-year-old Crow vs 39-year-old Cross.

Which is the better JtR candidate based on age?

Well, I´d say that since the Ripper murders are clearly connected with the Torso murders, and since the Torso murders started in 1873, Crow must be rather an unlikely killer. He was six at the time, Lechmere was 24.

If that is not enough for you, Robert Ressler (and you love authorities, remember?) said that the archetypical serial killer was a family father in his thirties, holding down a steady job.

Lechmere, therefore.

[Fisherman]

Possibly, and Crow could have lied about the time he walked thru the door.

It`s interesting that The Crow (even the name is sinister) didn`t know if Tabram was dead or sleeping when he passes her, yet Reeves notices she is lying in a pool of blood.

Crow bragged afterwards about how he had a very good eyesight in the dark, and that this was what allowed him to see the person on the ground - who was likely, but not definitely Tabram.

I understand that you are comparing with Neil and Paul here, but the circumstances are different.

[Batman]

Batman: Why is "being found" standing beside a victim a better candidate than someone who was beside the victim and left her there without telling anyone!

It isn´t. But you are forgetting the full implications. Only Lechmere would have had reason to think that the victim he saw and examined was dead - Crow never touched the shape he saw, not was he able to make anything at all out in the darkness more than that somebody was on the floor. He was used to that, and had no reason to suspect foul play.
Furthermore, Lechmere was there at a remove in time which is consistent with him being the killer, something that - according to Killeen - Crow was not.
So once we look at things from a more realistic angle, the suspect value is massively on Lechmeres side.

You don't know Crow never went near the shape he saw. You don't know he wasn't the one that decided to stab her. Oh and crafty, like your Cross, she was on his route home, so what better an excuse!

If you don't hear someone breathing as they sleep, then that spells bad news. Cross was probably aware of that having inspected her.

Basically, Crow wins over Cross, hands down, by not even reporting being near a body. We can say he left the scene of a crime without telling the police and when confronted blamed the dark on it.

And Lechmere was a carman who has a proven work trek that takes him close to or right by all the Spitalfields murder sites. Once again, Crow is outclassed.

This is a misleading claim. There is no 'work trek'. There are treks plural and invoking places near where his relatives lived and not just work. There has to be as the C5 are in a circle around Whitechapel. What sort of a 'work trek' is that? I'll tell what sort of 'work trek' that is... a cabbies, work trek.

Crow was a cab driver. That could take him anywhere within Whitechapel.

Your claim is that the major routes are going passed murder sites. Well, then you need Crow as a licenced cab driver not going down any major routes ever to rule him out of the same claims you have for Cross.

No, I need him to have a verified reason for having been at the murder sites on the relevant hours, instead of driving his cab in Chelsea, Bow or somewhere else.
Discussion over, space wasted, let´s move on.

There is absolutely NOTHING ruling out a Whitechapel cab driver from experiencing the major routes (your argument from coming into contact with the C5). As pointed out, Crow was out till the early hours. 03:30am.

Also, this idea that Cross was the only who exclusively ever visited these places before the murders must be categorically wrong. Anyone living in a 3km x 3km town is likely going to have gone down nearly every road within a few years of living there. You don't even need them going to work. Just going out for walks or business would be enough. Heck even the unfortunates were doing it!

[Fisherman]

Even more so if he goes via Haydon Square, but Bats has it on good authority that no one crossed Aldgate High Street that night.

[Jon Guy]

I think Lechmere is a sinister name too-swamp of leeches lol

C`mon Abby
The Crow(I`d have Brandon Lee in the lead rol)e versus Mr Cross .he`s angry!! (Adam Sandler in the lead role)


You know The Crow wins the names !! ;-)

[Fisherman]

You don't know Crow never went near the shape he saw. You don't know he wasn't the one that decided to stab her. Oh and crafty, like your Cross, she was on his route home, so what better an excuse!

If you don't hear someone breathing as they sleep, then that spells bad news. Cross was probably aware of that having inspected her.

Basically, Crow wins over Cross, hands down, by not even reporting being near a body. We can say he left the scene of a crime without telling the police and when confronted blamed the dark on it.



This is a misleading claim. There is no 'work trek'. There are treks plural and invoking places near where his relatives lived and not just work. There has to be as the C5 are in a circle around Whitechapel. What sort of a 'work trek' is that? I'll tell what sort of 'work trek' that is... a cabbies, work trek.

Crow was a cab driver. That could take him anywhere within Whitechapel.



There is absolutely NOTHING ruling out a Whitechapel cab driver from experiencing the major routes (your argument from coming into contact with the C5). As pointed out, Crow was out till the early hours. 03:30am.

Also, this idea that Cross was the only who exclusively ever visited these places before the murders must be categorically wrong. Anyone living in a 3km x 3km town is likely going to have gone down nearly every road within a few years of living there. You don't even need them going to work. Just going out for walks or business would be enough. Heck even the unfortunates were doing it!

Plot lost. It never was about how nothing rules a man out, it´s about what rules him IN! We cant rule any Londoner out, more or less, but we can rule the fewest in. Lechmere is such a person, Crow is not.

[Batman]

Plot lost.

You are too quick. Read the edit. Heck it doesn't even say it was edited you were so fast to reply.