Lech versus Kos

[etenguy]

What I am asking myself, regarding Charles Lechmere as the only good suspect and the probable Ripper, is something that is connected to a funny thing I came to think of years ago, and posted back then.

I´ll be off for some time now, so you will all have time to chew on the question. Who framed Lechmere?

I am not Elamarna nor have I pinned my mast to a particular suspect. Nor do I discount the possibility that Charles Lechmere could have been the Ripper. However, there is no evidence that he was. I think you overstate the case supporting his potential guilt. That he found the body? Somebody had to. That the murders were not far from one of his routes to work - well he walked the length of the area, so of course that would be the case. That Goulston street was on his way home from Mitre Square - so it was for many. What was the smoking gun for you?

[Batman]

What all this speaks to is that JtR had murdered a few of his victims in very public areas to maximize shock value. He had murdered in several places where he knows that someone must come across his crime scene soon, especially a PC with a lantern, and so he has to get out of there fast. He even turned Kelly's head towards the door looking at whoever should come in. Placed her hand in her empty abdomen. The spread eagle evolving across the C5 and seen in other associated Whitechapel murders. So he is aware of people finding his victims. More than aware of it. It's part of his signature involving "open and displayed".

So his murders were not just done wherever an unfortunate brought him (you can be sure many met him and he didn't murder them because the conditions not favorable) but in an environment, he preferred and felt comfortable in. This appears to be significant streets in Whitechapel where the flow of people is to be found as they set off to work. The unfortunates go there also looking for punters. So in a way, it is comfort zone not unlike what Leechmere would have experienced with throughout his life going to work.

JtR was murdering in places where a Lechmere type Whitechapel working class person would find the body... or a PC. In fact, when you add up who found the bodies, this is what you get throughout the series.

To this extent, Lechmere is not causal to the Whitechapel murders because of his work routes. However, it is neither purely incidental nor is it coincidence. The Whitechapel murderer's MO and signature to involve the locals of Whitechapel is a selective one. He had created constraints around who will find his victim's bodies. If not a PC, then the other candidate is a working-class person's using these major roads and spots where unfortunates dwell which happen to be very nearby (houses off the roads).

In short, while the Lechmere map does seem to indicate an affinity with JtRs crime scenes somehow, the answer to showing why Lechmere isn't JtR, is to go out and spend time working on just finding people in general who also took these routes like Lechmere. I think it is researching Lechmere alone that biases the view, whereas if large groups of working class people aren't even remotely coming close to Lechmere's pathways, in a population study, then that may bolster the Lechmere claim to causation, but I suspect such a study will reveal many potential Lechmere's witnesses all over Whitechapel that took these same routes or ones bypassing all these sights of interest.

Basically, a sample of one needs to be contrasted with a sample of many. That's all.

[Fisherman]

What a load of pony.

So if the killer was NOT Lechmere, then he did not kill in the areas we know that Lechmere is tied to?

Gareth, if you are going to comment the way you do here, you are going to need to explain WHY it is suppsedly a "load of pony".

Lechmere´s working trek passed through the area between Hanbury Street and Old Montague Street, and we can´t tell which road he used, because there are opportunities that are of the same approxiamate length and time consumption.

Four victims were killed here, three of the C5 and Tabram.

The two other victims were killed in close proximity to Lechmere´s mothers house or more or less along his old working route from James Street to Broad Street.

These are not equestrian matters, they are facts.

So whichever way we look upon it, the Phantom killer (a I like to call hoim and as you like not to call him) murdered in areas that are tied to Lechmere.

You often speak of how small the murder area is. But once we work from the idea with an unidentified killer, the POSSIBLE murder area for such a man is anything but small. He could have killed anywhere in London (and beyond, for that matter) - but he just happens to kill only in spots that Charles Lechmere has been tied to. And the women killed in the Hanbury Street/Old MOntague Street area are not only killed in the area Lechmere passed en route to work, they are also killed at the approximate times he did so.

You don´t like it, I can understand that. But what can you do about it? Nothing.

The baffling "coincidence" remains, no matter how many ponys you bring on the stage.

[Fisherman]

Elamarna: Start with the easy one Christer, if it were Aaron, killing Stride at Berner street, is nothing to do with fitting up poor old Charlie, its simply close to where he in all probability lived.
While we don't know his exact address during the Autumn of 1888, it appears he lived mostly with his famly, and they surround Berner Street, being in Greenfield and Yarford streets to the North, Providence to the South. oh and 38 Berner street a few years earlier.

A little closer tham mother Lechmere.

Yes, agreed - of all the murders, the Berner Street murder is the one that is easiest to pin on Kosminski, geographically speaking. However, while we KNOW that Lechmere lived in Doveton Street, we can only reason that Kosminski may have lived where you suggest.

Of course with Charlie having only just moved from the same general area, there must be a chance they knew each other by sight. maybe they talked and swapped stories.

Also agreed - they may have seen each other, and Kosminski will have stood out, at least at times.

The others I will get back to you probably tomorrow, obviously I am still writing references, so am trying to split mytime between that and posting here.

Sounds good - but prepare yourself for not being able to come as close to the mark as Lechmere did. Not only must you produce a credible agenda for why Kosminski would have traversed the Hanbury/Old Montague Street area, you must also explain why he would do so at the approximate same time as Lechmere trekked to Broad Street, and you must have as good an explanation for where the rag in Goulston Street was found as I have when it comes to Lechmere. Was it in a direct line from Mitre square to Providence Road...?

You will fall short, and I think we both know that. The question is how short.


Steve[/QUOTE]

[Fisherman]

How does Eddowes bloody apron piece figure into this?

It fits with the logical movements of Lechmere if he was the killer, regardless if he returned direct to Doveton Street from Mitre Square or if he came from Broad Street after having deposited the innards from Eddowes there. As you may be aware, Alfred Long tells us that the killer did not arrive in Goulston Street as early as some will have it.

[Fisherman]

Lech was on his way back to Doveton Street and went via Goulston Street?

I have my own take on that, which I've mention before, seemingly to deaf ears.

If you've just killed in Mitre Square and wish to escape the City police jurisdiction ASAP, you head for Haydon Square, the closest point of exit from the City, and formerly the site of a Pickfords depot. From there if you head north to cross WC High Street you hit Goulston Street.

Of course, that route doesn't have the same cosy relationship to the 'hot zone' as a simple straight line.

I have two possible starting points for Lechmere on the night, either Mitre Square, OR the Broad Street depot, which is where I think he may possibly have headed to deposit the innards from Eddowes. Either way, Goulston Street fits a return route to Doveton Street. And there were many routes to use, larger ones and back alleys.

Can you provide a map so I can see your suggested route? I don´t know where Haydon Square was situated.

[Fisherman]

More effort has been put into shoehorning Lechmere into the Ripper’s footwear than any other suspect. He was there. He found the body. That’s all there is.

Irrelevant, I´m afraid. We all know that you dislike Lechmere and anyone who sees him as the killer, but the question here is why the dreaded Phantom killer chose to kill in the areas that have been identified as Lechmere grounds, verified or likely ones.

If you could keep to the subject, it would be nice. Why choose not only Lechmere´s grounds, but also his timings in the working trek cases? There was all of London to choose from for any other killer than Lechmere - but no, it had to be the carmans premises.

Why?

[Fisherman]

Nobody framed Lechmere. He was innocently walking to work at 0.340am down Bucks Row, when Lech saw, what he thought was a tarpaulin. On closer inspection it was a woman's body. Lech looked at it for a couple of minutes, looked up and saw Robert Paul walking through Bucks Row. Lech called Robert Paul over and asked Robert to have a look (which he did) and they thought that the woman was dead and then they made the conscious decision to continue their walk to work (or they were going to be late) and that they would tell a Policeman (any one will do) what they had found in Bucks Row. As the two men (Lech & Paul) had only just left Bucks Row, PC John Neil enters Bucks Row and finds Polly's body. Lech & Paul come across PC Mizen on their travels and they tell him of the woman's body in Bucks Row. All perfectly innocent of two men finding a dead women's body and agreeing to do the right thing by reporting it- which they did.

Now you can finish the story.....

You seem to have missed the question too:

If it was not Lechmere, then it was somebody else.

If it was somebody else, that somebody else chose to kill in areas and streets tied to Lechmere, plus also on times that are spot on or close to his working trek times.

How did that come about?

[Fisherman]

Forget very good, any photo would do, we simply do not have any pictorial representation of the man.



All we know is that he appeared in Court in 1889, on the unmuzzled dog charge, he did not appear to be ill at that point, certainly no where near his reported condition in 1891



There is every possibility that in 1888, he for the main appeared and acted normal, he may even have used prostitutes on a regular basis. He may not have appeared strange at all.


Steve

Do you believe he was in control of himself when he killed, or that he acted under the influence of psychosis?

[Fisherman]

I am not Elamarna nor have I pinned my mast to a particular suspect. Nor do I discount the possibility that Charles Lechmere could have been the Ripper. However, there is no evidence that he was. I think you overstate the case supporting his potential guilt. That he found the body? Somebody had to. That the murders were not far from one of his routes to work - well he walked the length of the area, so of course that would be the case. That Goulston street was on his way home from Mitre Square - so it was for many. What was the smoking gun for you?

That is not the question asked out here. The question asked out here is how it came about that the alternative killer that must be brought on stage if it was not Lechmere chose to kill in the areas tied to Charles. Plus since it seems that Tabram, Nichols, Chapman and Kelly may all have been killed at times consistent with Lechmere morning trek to Broad Street - why is it that the alternative killer who had already chosen to kill in a geographical pattern that is consistent with Lechmere, also chose a chronology that seems equally consistent with the carmans moves?

There was all of London to use! There were 24 hours of the day to employ! So why oh why did he have to kill in a manner that actually framed the poor carman?

[Fisherman]

What all this speaks to is that JtR had murdered a few of his victims in very public areas to maximize shock value. He had murdered in several places where he knows that someone must come across his crime scene soon, especially a PC with a lantern, and so he has to get out of there fast. He even turned Kelly's head towards the door looking at whoever should come in. Placed her hand in her empty abdomen. The spread eagle evolving across the C5 and seen in other associated Whitechapel murders. So he is aware of people finding his victims. More than aware of it. It's part of his signature involving "open and displayed".

So his murders were not just done wherever an unfortunate brought him (you can be sure many met him and he didn't murder them because the conditions not favorable) but in an environment, he preferred and felt comfortable in. This appears to be significant streets in Whitechapel where the flow of people is to be found as they set off to work. The unfortunates go there also looking for punters. So in a way, it is comfort zone not unlike what Leechmere would have experienced with throughout his life going to work.

JtR was murdering in places where a Lechmere type Whitechapel working class person would find the body... or a PC. In fact, when you add up who found the bodies, this is what you get throughout the series.

To this extent, Lechmere is not causal to the Whitechapel murders because of his work routes. However, it is neither purely incidental nor is it coincidence. The Whitechapel murderer's MO and signature to involve the locals of Whitechapel is a selective one. He had created constraints around who will find his victim's bodies. If not a PC, then the other candidate is a working-class person's using these major roads and spots where unfortunates dwell which happen to be very nearby (houses off the roads).

In short, while the Lechmere map does seem to indicate an affinity with JtRs crime scenes somehow, the answer to showing why Lechmere isn't JtR, is to go out and spend time working on just finding people in general who also took these routes like Lechmere. I think it is researching Lechmere alone that biases the view, whereas if large groups of working class people aren't even remotely coming close to Lechmere's pathways, in a population study, then that may bolster the Lechmere claim to causation, but I suspect such a study will reveal many potential Lechmere's witnesses all over Whitechapel that took these same routes or ones bypassing all these sights of interest.

Basically, a sample of one needs to be contrasted with a sample of many. That's all.

Bollocks, I´m afraid. Not, mind you, when it comes to the overall thinking about the killer possibly choosing his murder sites on account of a wish to make his business as public as possible - I like the suggestion, and I have said the same thing many a time. This was a killer who seems to have latched on to the publicity train once he realized how famous he was beginning to get. Personally, I believe that he was also the torso killer, and the distribution of parts that killer did is more of the same - he floated them through the heart of London and placed other parts in VERY publicity.gaining locations on dry land.
The torso killings gave him more time to do what he wanted, and the Ripper killings gave him more publicity, so it was always gonna be a choice.

We agree to a degree on this, apparently.

But the whole of London was crammed with public areas, and the idea that an alternative killer just by chance would choose only streets and areas that are more or less closely linked to Lechmere is a lousy one, I´m afraid. It is far too much of a coincidence.
What made any of the sites he uses more "public" than ten thousand OTHER sites in London? It´s not as if the sites chosen were the only options if he wanted publicity, is it? Arguably, there were many, many other streets that would give him MORE publicity than the ones chosen; George Yard, a crammed alleyway off Old Montague Street, Bucks Row, a drab, uninteresting conglomerate of factories and simple enough dwellings, Berner Street, in the middle of nowhere, Mitre Square, not the liveliest or most fashionable place... No, Batman, that part of your reasoning does not hold up. He may have killed in public spots, yes - but why did he choose THE EXACT public spots and areas that are tied to Lechmere and the approximate times that are knit to the carmans working trek?

THAT, my friend is the question!

[harry]

To frame Cross,the killer would have to Know that Cross would find the body of Nichols,and that Cross would be passing along the route each time a killing occurred.Perhaps Kosminski was a gypsey who gazed into his crystal ball?This whole theory reeks of a fairground atmosphere,not surprising seeing it was the fairground barker who started it.

[Elamarna]

Do you believe he was in control of himself when he killed, or that he acted under the influence of psychosis?

Quick reply, no idea, and neither will anyone else have anything more than a feeling on this.
Without know his exact condition in Autumn 1888, it is guess work.
All I will say his he must have appeared to be in control and relatively "normal" to get close to the victims, that goes for whoever the killer was. If he really was is an entirely different matter.

Sorry it's no clearer than that to me.

Rest to follow.

Steve

[Harry D]

You only have to look at that photo of Lechmere to see he was the killer. He's got lifeless eyes, black eyes, like a doll's eyes.

[Batman]

But the whole of London was crammed with public areas, and the idea that an alternative killer just by chance would choose only streets and areas that are more or less closely linked to Lechmere is a lousy one, I´m afraid. It is far too much of a coincidence.

This is actually demonstrable and falsifiable. You have a sample size of one, but it needs to be contrasted with other samples and your case for Lechmere isn't currently contrasted with anyone else such as a sample of the working population at the time.

All anyone needs to do is find someone else whose work passes close to the crime scenes. Say going North to South/South to North rather than East to West/West to East. I predict that if you expand your sample size of one, that these individuals will start also popping up.

What made any of the sites he uses more "public" than ten thousand OTHER sites in London? It´s not as if the sites chosen were the only options if he wanted publicity, is it? Arguably, there were many, many other streets that would give him MORE publicity than the ones chosen; George Yard, a crammed alleyway off Old Montague Street, Bucks Row, a drab, uninteresting conglomerate of factories and simple enough dwellings, Berner Street, in the middle of nowhere, Mitre Square, not the liveliest or most fashionable place...

He probably did try this. As I said, you can be sure he was with unfortunates in places where he didn't feel comfortable and didn't murder them because of that. Like many other SKs of this type, they still visit prostitutes and use them but don't kill all of them, just some, when conditions seem right. Unreported JtR attempts to murder may even have happened with the potential victim getting away and thinking it was just a criminal trying to mug them.

No, Batman, that part of your reasoning does not hold up. He may have killed in public spots, yes - but why did he choose THE EXACT public spots and areas that are tied to Lechmere and the approximate times that are knit to the carmans working trek?

With a sample size of one, you can't know even know that it is a correlation, let alone causation. You need to start with correlation first. What you need to show is that against a backdrop of workers paths around 1888, that Lechmere is unique.

I think all we will find in larger sample sizes is that Lechmere discovered a body or saw something... like Diemshutz or even Schwartz. Schwartz has at least two Whitechapel crime scenes connected to his walking paths. Stride and the Pinchin Street Torso, so I suppose Diemshutz also fits for those two. That's just two separate witnesses both individually connected to two murder sites just off the top of my head. How about Lewende and friends walking by Metre Sq. I wonder where their trips take them? Or plainclothed detectives placed around the place. Or how about people who filled in for the jobs of others? That backdrop must be contrasted with Lechmere if you want to demonstrate something unique and a sample size of one can't do it.