Lech versus Kos

[Fisherman]

..."or earlier" is not a fact, it's an opinion which, even if true, opens up a range of potential times during which Cross was NOT heading for work. You cannot claim that what Philips said "fits like a glove" at all.

Phillips said "at least two hours, probably more".

If he meant a week, he would have said so.

The two hour distinction is a conductor that tells us that this is where Phillips would go, no further.

One must predispose that "probably more" would have meant something like half an hour or an hour or perhaps an hour and a half, in which case he would have nigh on DOUBLED the time allowed for.

That means that we would be speaking of something like 3 AM, 3.30 AM or 4 AM.

And that takes us right into the factory of Mr Truth, glovemaker.

You are absolutely in your full right to suggest that Phillips may have been suggesting that she was killed around midnight, be my guest. But id thatīs the path your going down, please think twice before you write me a post worded "what a lot of pony".

[Abby Normal]

Journalists visiting all these places to write about something there prior to the Whitechapel murders.

Head detectives visiting all these places because of crime investigation prior to the Whitechapel murders.

Coroners.

Doctors.

Unfortunates themselves.

They are all possible candidates for people who worked near the crime scenes at one point in time or another, even before the Whitechapel murders. I am just giving you a possible selection.

yeah but here is a suspect, the ONLY suspect, that we definitively know that his daily route took him near the murder sites. No other suspect comes close.

and the one anomaly-the double event-happened at a different time and locationbut his mom lived very close by.

[Batman]

As I said before, if he deposited the innards and cleaned up at the Pickfords depot up at Broad Street, that would fit with the apron and it would explain why there was an hour "lost".

"If it was there before 2.20 and just missed, it implies the killer went in that direction sooner rather than later, I accept that in that case, it is more or less a direct line from Mitre Square to Doveton Street."

Bravo. Batman didnīt fix that.

Eddowes is murdered at 1:40am (approx.)
2:20am Long doesn't see apron.
2:50am Long finds apron.
Min. 40min to a Max. of 1hr 10min.
55 minutes (mean).

I already gave the minimum time. 40 minutes. Maximum time is 1hr 10 min.

Mitre Sq., to Goulston St., is approx 7 min.

Which still leaves him doing something between for at least half an hour. He can't be off doing something else for greater than 1hr 10 min between murder and discovery of apron piece.

JtR going south from Mitre Sq., is virtually caught. Three plainclothes are minute or so walk towards Aldergate and one of those plainclothes is in charge of beat organisations that night. So they are all on the ball.

It is very simple to map out the times and places for this if you think you have solved it.

I'd like to see the map and timings.

[Batman]

I really donīt understand what you are trying to say. Is there a point hidden here?

Journalists visiting all these places to write about something there prior to the Whitechapel murders.

Head detectives visiting all these places because of crime investigation prior to the Whitechapel murders.

Coroners.

Doctors.

Unfortunates themselves.

They are all possible candidates for people who worked near the crime scenes at one point in time or another, even before the Whitechapel murders. I am just giving you a possible selection.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam Flynn: Only if you've got a hand you want to force the glove into.

Nope. If Phillips was on the money it all fits nicely. It has nothing at all to do with what I want, it is a fact nevertheless.

..."or earlier" is not a fact, it's an opinion which, even if true, opens up a range of potential times during which Cross was NOT heading for work. You cannot claim that what Philips said "fits like a glove" at all.

[Sam Flynn]

The difference from your Mr Kosminski in Goulston Street is that we KNOW that Lechmere had his mother in Mary Ann Street together with his daughter.

If he had such a useful fake alibi/bolthole to hand near Berner Street, why didn't he commit more murders in that area, especially when things got really hot up in Spitalfields? At least that way he needn't have restricted his nefarious activities to only those days/times when he was heading to work.

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn:What about 3AM, 2:30 or earlier? What if Cross wasn't working that particular day, working elsewhere, or on a different shift?

Then he was in all probability not the killer. The same applies if he was tapdancing in Leicester Square on the other murder mornings, by the way.
The problem is that we have absolutely no reason at all ti think he did not go to work on these days. None whatsoever. The logical thing is to accept that he probably did. So letīs do precisely that and work from that assumption, instead of the tapdancing scenario.

Only if you've got a hand you want to force the glove into.

Nope. If Phillips was on the money it all fits nicely. It has nothing at all to do with what I want, it is a fact nevertheless.

[Fisherman]

Elamarna: The only one of the murders which definitive takes place in the timeframe of Lechmere walking to work is Nichols.

Sorry, but we actually donīt know that. They may all have fitted the frame quite well.

Chapman's time of death is something which we have debated many times, and with a good deal of passion on both sides I think.

I prefer icy cold scientific takes to passionate ones, so I go with Phillips, like the police did. Though I will admit that I am not always quite the icy cold scientist myself...


In a nutshell, you accept the TOD suggested by Phillips, based for the main part on his feelings about how the body fealt to his TOUCH, and the degree of Rigor Mortis present.

Basically, yes, although I have little doubt that Phillips checked for other parameters too, such as lividity and overall appearance.

I on the other hand point out that FEEL is not a reliable indicator, nor is Rigor. In 1888, there were no doubt regarded as such, but are not seen so today. Rectal temperature being the prefered method.


We have no records taken, or at least recorded and refered to at the inquest, with regards to either any body temperature for Chapman or the ambient temperature in the yard of #29 Hanbury street.

We also have the witness statement of Richardson, which says the body was not present at a time Lechmere should have been long at work.
I exclude Long and Cadosch, their testimony is not required to say the body was not there before Lechmere was due to start work.

For those reason, I cannot accept the TOD as offered by Phillips, it was not based on sound scientific indicators.

You donīt know that, Iīm afraid. They may have been sound enough and spot on; a doctor of Phillipsī magnitude was no quack.

At the end of the day, it matters very little. What is of importance is that it cannot be in any way excluded that Phillips was on the money, just like the police accepted he was. Introducing doubt in the shape of the three witnesses - or any chosen one of them - does not alter that. Even if there were no witnesses, Phillips assessment and itīs inherent value does not change. Anybody could say "he may have been wrong" without Richardsons testimony. And technically, although it is doubtful, it is possible that he was wrong.
But he may also quite well have been right, and that means that the door for accepting my theory is left wide open. I ask for no more, I donīt have to have people accepting Phillipsīverdict.

The double event two, do not fit any known time that Lechmere can be placed in the relevant areas.
It is conjecture, not totally unreasonable I grant you, but conjecture none the less.

The difference from your Mr Kosminski in Goulston Street is that we KNOW that Lechmere had his mother in Mary Ann Street together with his daughter. And we KNOW that they were very closely related, as closely related as it gets, to Charles Lechmere. Since there are no comings and goings list kept, that is the most one can hope for as a suspectologist. It is as good as it gets.


In the case of Kelly, we again have the issue of reliable TOD, and the range on offer is large, 2am onwards. Indeed modern forensics do not exclude the possibility of a TOD far closer to the discover of the body than many have previously considered.

... nor a 3-4 AM TOD.

The possiblie range being so large, it will of course encompass the time that Lechmere would pass, but cannot be used to actually place him there at the required time.

True - but once more, it is as good as it gets. She is victim number four that cannot be in any way ruled out, going on Lechmereīs geographical and chronological indicators. Where do you fit Kosminski in, in this context? How do you place him in George Yard, Bucks Row, Hanbury Street etc? And how do you account for his haing been around at, say, 3-4 AM?

Surely, itīs another case of falling way short?

If we include Tabram, we again have an issue with TOD. neither do we have any evidence that Lechmere actually used the suggested route via Old Montague and Wentworth, conjecture I am afraid, reasoned but still conjecture.

True - but itīs useful and viable conjecture. And it even offers us the chance to drop her if we do not like her for the Ripperīs tally (hello Gareth!). Nichols, Chapman and Kelly are all Hanbury Street route victims.

Apart from Nichols, none can be shown to coincide with a time period when we know Lechmere, if working that particular day, should have been in the area.

And none can be excluded! They hey may all have been killed at 3-4 AM. Once again, as good as it gets. It is actually astonishing that such a good case can be built against the carman 130 years after the events. It is not ever going to happen again, if you ask me. Not nearly.

Therefore, the proposition that Kosminski needs to be in the area, at the same time that Lechmere treks to work is not only unproven, but not actually required.

He needs to be in the area, he needs to be there at nighttime, he needs to be there at around 3.40 in the Bucks Row case, he needs to be in Berner Street and he needs to be in Mitre Square. He needs to have a reason to be in all of the murder site places in the early morning hours, the way Lechmere is by walking through the area.
The requirements are not that slack at all, Steve.

I feel it is you who are failing on this particular issue, the murders cannot be shown to actually occur when Lechmere is in the area.

The proposition that he was is nevertheless a very viable one. And we know that we are spot on in Bucks Row, where he was found alone in the street close by the victim.
NOW we are talking of falling short on Kosminskis behalf.


Steve[/QUOTE]

[Busy Beaver]

Thanks for the link Batman. I had no idea that Robert Napper existed. Like the Ripper case. the police obviously had their own ideas and Roberts name was written down on a scrap piece of paper or filed away, until his finger prints were found at the murder scene of The Bissets. That's eight years of horrendous crimes having been committed, which is pretty bad considering DNA techniques were available.
I suppose if you are a killer intent on killing, then no-one or nothing is going to get in your way.
If the information known about Kozminski is correct, then he would have been witness to terrible assaults on his people and that would have had a tremendous effect on someone who was already struggling with mental health issues even before they set foot on British soil.
Perhaps by 1992 those who suspected Kozminski may have decided that his MH had deteriorated so much that he was totally unfit to take the stand. Rather sad all round to be perfectly honest. The murder of unfortunate woman who have seen better times and their possible murderer, a young man who was rejected by his family and society because he was unwell and couldn't really be helped other than being locked away.

[Sam Flynn]

It puts the deed earlier than 4.30. Lechmere would havce passed Hanbury Street at around, say 3.45.

What about 3AM, 2:30 or earlier? What if Cross wasn't working that particular day, working elsewhere, or on a different shift?

Iīd say that a glove may well be introduced into the discussion.

Only if you've got a hand that you want to force the glove onto.

[Fisherman]

Even assuming Phillips was right, "probably earlier" does not mean it coincided with Cross en route to work. It leaves things open, but in no way does it fit like a glove.

It puts the deed earlier than 4.30. Lechmere would havce passed Hanbury Street at around, say 3.45. Iīd say that a glove may well be introduced into the discussion.

The TOD:s of the four morning victims are not in total sync on the doctorīs reports, but there is learoom to suggest that they may have been so in reality. That is a powerful indicator.
It also applies that Lechmere (if he was the killer, but surely we agree on that by now...?) may have left home at varying times. But the overall picture is one where the victims all fell prey in the early morning hours, and I think speaking about 3-4 AM may cover it all very well.

[Fisherman]

Thanks, Fish. What seems illogical and outlandish to myself - let alone anyone else - might be perfectly acceptable behaviour for a serial killer with an insatiable/opportunistic bloodlust. After he brazenly bluffed his way out of Buck's Row, this might have emboldened Lechmere to strike again in repeated fashion, rather than putting him off.

Exactly so - the ideas of invincibility and a being some sort of a God is never there from the outset - they come with successful strikes. The process seems to be a continuous one, often leading to the downfall of the serial killer on account of how he gets sloppy and careless, for the simple reason that he believes that he can afford to.
I believe that many serialists are sort of communicating with the surrounding society, making points as it were. Many times the society fail to see them, and that may anger the serialist who may become much more brazen; If they do not listen to me, I will raise my voice.

[Fisherman]

Elamarna: That would be important, if he did not still have the Apron on his person, , with it there, if he is stopped and searched the game is probably up.

Only if the ones stopping him were aware of the rag found in Goulston Street and how it was half of an apron. Somebody stopped with a makeshift bandage over a wound would not necessarily be ID:d as the Ripper.


Ageed, there are plenty of possibilites.

Do you mean New Goulston Street?

Indeed I do.

Not as short as you seem to suggest.
The point is it is not any Eastern European name, but the very same name, indeed the same as his elder brother.
However I do acknowledge it is suppositition, like much of the case against Lechmere of course, and of course like the suggestion that Lechmere was in that area at all that night.

I know that Kosminski is not any eastern European name, but I said that if we are to allow for him perhaps having known "your" Kosminski, then we may as well allow for him having known other eastern European Jews; some of their names would be prevalent in the area from where Kos hailed. As for what you call supposition, I believe you mean possibility? We cannot suppose that the two knew each other.

That is the question I asked below, when I asked for a particular reason to pick that location, not just on a side street, but inside the entrance to a block of flats, where anyone could have walked down or in to?
Do we have one?

I donīt know about "we", I can only say that I have none - I accept that it could just as well have ended up on just about any other location along his flight route.

Agreed, and something I also concider, it may explain several things such as no activity in October, or maybe he was just laying low, because the coast was too hot.

Yes, it is a handy explanation that could fill in a few gaps.


Again, it's not as short as you may wish to beleive.

I donīt "wish" for any such thing - I simply predispose that you MUST fall short here, to which degree is another matter. But in the case at hand, since we KNOW that Lechmere worked at the Broad Street depot, and since we donīt know that he knew Mr Kosminski of Goulston Street or had ever even seen him or heard about him, and since there were more than one Kosminski family, Iīd say that you fall pretty short on the matter. But no measuring tape can be applied as such, itīs a matter of staying true to the facts and admitting or contesting them.

Steve[/QUOTE]

[Elamarna]

Yes, absolutely. But letīs not forget that the police chose to put stock in Phillips instead, who had the murder at 4.30 at the earliest - but PROBABLY EARLIER. Fits like a glove, right?

The Police, like yourself are accepting the TOD of the Doctor, they accepted his proffesional view, they assumed he was basing his view on scientific fact.

However medicine and scince has moved on very far from 1888. what was seen as being correct then is now KNOW to be incorrect.

And the issue here is very large, TOD cannot be reliably based on the indicators that Phillips used in 1888.

In fact to do so, is to actually ignore the scientific knowledge we now have.


steve

[Fisherman]

Any one of tens of thousands of men who lived in Spitalfields, as opposed to living a mile away from "Ripper Central" as Cross did.

No, no - NAME ONE!! And that someone should have a certified reason to traverse the Hanbury Street/Old Montague Street area at around 3-4 AM, he should have ties to the Berner Street area and the Mitre Square area or at least a reason to be there at the relevant times plus he should live in a spot that makes the Goulston Street rag logically placed.

Name one.