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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    I've walked the area frequently, and it's not huge at all. Mind you, I've not ventured to Doveton Street, Bethnal Green. Too far away, and there were no Ripper murders anywhere near it.
    The area from which the murderer could have come is what I speak of - and that area is immense.

    So why would he decide to kill only in areas that represent ties to Charles Lechmere and the approximate times when Lechmere was around?

    That is the question, and so far, I have not seen any answer at all to it from you that works. You could always take a walk to Doveton Street, which is only seven minutes walk from one of the Ripper murder sites, when pondering it. Maybe you can get feel for the area that way.

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  • Batman
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    There were many routes that would take him through the area where the murders occurred. The Hanbury Street route and the Old Montague Street route are the archetypical two choices. From any of them, deviations could be made, and if you are returning home after two murders that have the police on their feet, it can be reasoned that he may not have wanted to opt for the larger thoroughfares. As I say, take your pick. I have often suggested that he set out from Little Devonshire Street. He may have. Then again, he may not have. But it fits with arriving in New Goulston Street and then taking a let into Goulston Street.

    There is absolutely nothing in the apron business that rules Lechmeres candidacy out, Iīm afraid. On the contrary.


    So basically what you are saying is that Lechmere's routes are not fixed at all and in fact, we can have him going to work through routes which don't pass by the murder sites, correct?

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    But we are not talking of a small area. We are talking about a huge one
    I've walked the area frequently, and it's not huge at all.
    Last edited by Sam Flynn; 10-22-2018, 07:28 AM.

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  • Batman
    replied
    Originally posted by MrBarnett View Post
    What do you mean by 'virtually caught'? No one could have crossed Aldgate without being seen and immediately arrested?
    Virtually, meaning not only is he beating the beat of two officers on Mitre sq., but plainclothes officers also. If they saw his face how could they miss him again on his way to work for days after?

    At that time of night, with the rain the way it was, there were not many people out, and it was easy enough for bobbies to find who was out, stop them and talk to them, which is what they did running around the place.

    The problem is that here we have not just one detective in plainclothes, but three and one who is higher up watching the very street just under where Eddowes was murdered, hence why they arrived in a no time at all after the body was found.

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    he probably could have found a piece chalk at pickford too. yes?
    Possibly so, yes. It may have been common practice to chalk things up about the daily routes etcetera.

    Not that I think that he brought any chalk with himself, but nevertheless.

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Batman View Post
    Ahh... but there is a map! You have told us that Lechmere is murdering on his way too and from work.

    The problem is, the apron sequence of events, aren't too and from Lechmere's work are they?

    In fact, it is very different from the lines you draw to and from Pickfords to show how he passes by this area aren't they?

    Hence Lechmere maps galore for working online... and zero for apron dumping.

    The apron dumping is not his work route.
    There were many routes that would take him through the area where the murders occurred. The Hanbury Street route and the Old Montague Street route are the archetypical two choices. From any of them, deviations could be made, and if you are returning home after two murders that have the police on their feet, it can be reasoned that he may not have wanted to opt for the larger thoroughfares. As I say, take your pick. I have often suggested that he set out from Little Devonshire Street. He may have. Then again, he may not have. But it fits with arriving in New Goulston Street and then taking a let into Goulston Street.

    There is absolutely nothing in the apron business that rules Lechmeres candidacy out, Iīm afraid. On the contrary.

    Leave a comment:


  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    No, because I don't know their names AND NEITHER DO YOU!!! (See, I can get hysterical as well.) The only reason we know about the majority of suspects in this case is because they got their names into the papers, and they were outnumbered by thousands to one by those who didn't.

    It goes without saying that Cross wasn't the only person with good reason to be out on the streets at the times of the murders. It also goes without saying that the Ripper didn't need to have any good reason to be out on the streets, other than for the purposes of indulging his need to kill.

    We also know that we can find all sorts of connections within the murders if we try; indeed, such exercises are fairly easy, given the small area and demographics involved.
    But we are not talking of a small area. We are talking about a huge one - the area the killer may have come from. There is no need to predispose that he lived in the area where he killed - he may have travelled in from Liverpool, alongside James Maybrick.

    So why is it that he opts for then three miniscule areas to which we have tied Charles Lechmere, his working trek area, his work and his mothers place? How can it be that a killer can choose the exact smallish areas a suspect who was found alone close by the dead body of Nichols and who disagreed with the police has very clear ties to?

    But you are correct that I have no name for another Londoner who traversed the killing fields in the early morning hours, who had ties to the Berner Street area and the Mitre Square area or a reason to go there in the middle of the night, and who lived in a spot that tallies with the Goulston Street rag. I am ready to bet ten pounds that nobody can find us such a man either.

    But we DO know that Lechmere fits the bill! And you know what? That elevates him way over any other suspect from an investigative point of view.

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  • Batman
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    There is no map. He killed Eddowes, and then he went to the Pickfords depot in a matter of minutes. There he deposited the innards and washed up and dressed his wound in the hand with the half apron before he returned out onto the streets. He then walked eastwards and stopped in the doorway in Goulston Street, before he went home to Doveton Street.

    Choose you own exact timings and streets. The general fit is there.
    Ahh... but there is a map! You have told us that Lechmere is murdering on his way too and from work.

    The problem is, the apron sequence of events, aren't too and from Lechmere's work are they?

    In fact, it is very different from the lines you draw to and from Pickfords to show how he passes by this area aren't they?

    Hence Lechmere maps galore for work routes online... and zero for apron dumping.

    The apron dumping is not his work route.
    Last edited by Batman; 10-22-2018, 07:14 AM.

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    There is no map. He killed Eddowes, and then he went to the Pickfords depot in a matter of minutes. There he deposited the innards and washed up and dressed his wound in the hand with the half apron before he returned out onto the streets. He then walked eastwards and stopped in the doorway in Goulston Street, before he went home to Doveton Street.

    Choose your own exact timings and streets. The general fit is there.
    he probably could have found a piece chalk at pickford too. yes?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
    No, no - NAME ONE!! And that someone should have a certified reason to traverse the Hanbury Street/Old Montague Street area at around 3-4 AM, he should have ties to the Berner Street area and the Mitre Square area or at least a reason to be there at the relevant times plus he should live in a spot that makes the Goulston Street rag logically placed.

    Name one.
    No, because I don't know their names AND NEITHER DO YOU!!! (See, I can get hysterical as well.) The only reason we know about the majority of suspects in this case is because they got their names into the papers, and they were outnumbered by thousands to one by those who didn't. The chances that JTR was one of this tiny minority of named individuals is slim indeed.

    It goes without saying that Cross wasn't the only person with good reason to be out on the streets at the times of the murders. It also goes without saying that the Ripper didn't need to have any good reason to be out on the streets, other than for the purposes of indulging his need to kill.

    We also know that we can find all sorts of connections within the murders if we try; indeed, such exercises are fairly easy, given the small area and demographics involved.
    Last edited by Sam Flynn; 10-22-2018, 07:08 AM.

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  • MrBarnett
    replied
    Originally posted by Batman View Post
    Eddowes is murdered at 1:40am (approx.)
    2:20am Long doesn't see apron.
    2:50am Long finds apron.
    Min. 40min to a Max. of 1hr 10min.
    55 minutes (mean).

    I already gave the minimum time. 40 minutes. Maximum time is 1hr 10 min.

    Mitre Sq., to Goulston St., is approx 7 min.

    Which still leaves him doing something between for at least half an hour. He can't be off doing something else for greater than 1hr 10 min between murder and discovery of apron piece.

    JtR going south from Mitre Sq., is virtually caught. Three plainclothes are minute or so walk towards Aldergate and one of those plainclothes is in charge of beat organisations that night. So they are all on the ball.

    It is very simple to map out the times and places for this if you think you have solved it.

    I'd like to see the map and timings.
    What do you mean by 'virtually caught'? No one could have crossed Aldgate without being seen and immediately arrested?

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    I think the thread is beginning to breed too many of the old "it was such a small area, where thousands of people were crammed in and anyone of them could be the killer".

    So letīs once more return to the aim of the thread.

    If the killer was not Charles Lechmere, then he was somebody else.

    There is no certainty whether that somebody else lived in the area, whether he was a rich merchant, a trainer of sea lions at a circus, if he lived in Cheltenham and commuted, if he was of royal descent, if he was a sailor named after a fig tree or if he was a diary writer from Liverpool.

    It NEVERTHELESS applies that he killed a number of women, all of them in spots that Lechmere had ties to or reasons to pass on a dialy basis at the approximate times the murders were committed.

    How on earth did that come about? Why is there a total fit? London was HUGE and prostitutes (and women in general) could be found all over the place and at any time of the day or night.

    It is often said (and noone says it more that Gareth) that the area the killer roamed was a miniscule one.

    Okay.Letīs say it comprised one hundreth of the total area of London in 1888. Or less.

    Then why is it that this killer just HAD to employ the three tiny areas we can tie to Charles Lechmere, his workplace, hos working trek area and his mothers place, housing one of his daughters. And why did the killer not strike at 1 AM in every case? Why did he have to strike at the approximate hours when Lechmere walked to work?

    Surely this is astounding?

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    yeah but here is a suspect, the ONLY suspect, that we definitively know that his daily route took him near the murder sites. No other suspect comes close.

    and the one anomaly-the double event-happened at a different time and locationbut his mom lived very close by.
    Are you going to get all logical now, Abby?

    Leave a comment:


  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Batman View Post
    Eddowes is murdered at 1:40am (approx.)
    2:20am Long doesn't see apron.
    2:50am Long finds apron.
    Min. 40min to a Max. of 1hr 10min.
    55 minutes (mean).

    I already gave the minimum time. 40 minutes. Maximum time is 1hr 10 min.

    Mitre Sq., to Goulston St., is approx 7 min.

    Which still leaves him doing something between for at least half an hour. He can't be off doing something else for greater than 1hr 10 min between murder and discovery of apron piece.

    JtR going south from Mitre Sq., is virtually caught. Three plainclothes are minute or so walk towards Aldergate and one of those plainclothes is in charge of beat organisations that night. So they are all on the ball.

    It is very simple to map out the times and places for this if you think you have solved it.

    I'd like to see the map and timings.
    There is no map. He killed Eddowes, and then he went to the Pickfords depot in a matter of minutes. There he deposited the innards and washed up and dressed his wound in the hand with the half apron before he returned out onto the streets. He then walked eastwards and stopped in the doorway in Goulston Street, before he went home to Doveton Street.

    Choose your own exact timings and streets. The general fit is there.
    Last edited by Fisherman; 10-22-2018, 07:04 AM.

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  • Fisherman
    replied
    Originally posted by Batman View Post
    Journalists visiting all these places to write about something there prior to the Whitechapel murders.

    Head detectives visiting all these places because of crime investigation prior to the Whitechapel murders.

    Coroners.

    Doctors.

    Unfortunates themselves.

    They are all possible candidates for people who worked near the crime scenes at one point in time or another, even before the Whitechapel murders. I am just giving you a possible selection.
    Aha! Then I understand!!

    Now, which of them is it you have found to be out and about at 3-4 AM, and who also had links to Berner Street and Mitre Square? And who lived in a spot that would explain the positioning of the Goulston Street rag?

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