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Deadly occupations and serial murder

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
    Hi

    CL didn't use his job as an aid to killing. He didn't kill while he was out delivering. The point that has been made was about the likelihood of killing 'on the way to work.' Under time constraints imposed by needing to be somewhere at a certain time and with all the attendant risks of possibly turning up for work with a stray bloodstain. Also, if he hadn't seen Paul and afterwards Mizen, he could have faced one of his workmates saying ' hey Charlie, don't you pass down Bucks Row every morning just where that woman was found dead?'
    Bury drove a cart. Issendschmidt was a butcher? What do we glean from those facts?

    Regards

    Herlock
    That both men had ties to one occupation each of the only two occupations we know are tied to violent crime, Herlock.

    It seems Lechmere was tied to both, though.

    What does that tell us?

    That Lechmere had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to have ties to violent crime, nothing more than that.

    It may well be nothing more than a ... coincidence!

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
      That both men had ties to one occupation each of the only two occupations we know are tied to violent crime, Herlock.

      It seems Lechmere was tied to both, though.

      What does that tell us?

      That Lechmere had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to have ties to violent crime, nothing more than that.

      It may well be nothing more than a ... coincidence!
      Christer, please tell us: what ties did Lechmere have to the occupation of long-haul lorry driver?

      I notice you seem reluctant to reply to the substantive arguments that both Pierre and I have made pointing out that what he did was nothing like being a modern long-distance lorry driver.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
        ...and of course the answers are mostly along the expected lines. One can only hope for so much!

        One of the points made in the docu referred to is that an advantage for the truckers is that they can dump victims in various places, making them hard to detect. Since I accept that the Ripper and the Torso killer, something there is ample evidence for, it seems that the Torso murders took advantage from the same thing. The initial dumping was seemingly made where the river Wandle meets that Thames, but since that knowledge was spread, the killer chose new and varying places.

        Gareth makes the point that a meat delivery man is no more tied to butchery than a postman is to writing. That is an interesting way to skew the perspectives: a postman is well aquainted with the letters.

        The Broad Street depot was handling meat to a very large extent according to the historian from the docu, and this will mean that Lechmere handled animal body parts.

        All in all, just like I said, Lechmere would have had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to be connected to violent crime and murder. That applies regardless of the desperation evinced about it.

        It is probably just another coincidence, eh?
        Skewed perspective! It's a prerequisite that a postman has to be able to read and so naturally will be acquainted with letters. A meat delivery man however wouldn't need to know how to carve a side of beef into steaks and joints etc!

        Coincidence....no. Just completely irrelevant.

        Herlock
        Regards

        Herlock






        "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
          That both men had ties to one occupation each of the only two occupations we know are tied to violent crime, Herlock.

          It seems Lechmere was tied to both, though.

          What does that tell us?

          That Lechmere had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to have ties to violent crime, nothing more than that.

          It may well be nothing more than a ... coincidence!
          But surely one has to consider context, which is what Pierre illustrated in Post 7.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
            That both men had ties to one occupation each of the only two occupations we know are tied to violent crime, Herlock.

            It seems Lechmere was tied to both, though.

            What does that tell us?

            That Lechmere had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to have ties to violent crime, nothing more than that.

            It may well be nothing more than a ... coincidence!
            Have you checked CL's star sign to see if it's the same as Peter Sutcliffes?

            Herlock
            Regards

            Herlock






            "There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact!"

            Comment


            • #21
              Very little to add to what has already been posted.

              However I will just sumerise what other have said.

              1. He was in reality a local delivery man; not a long distance trucker, therefore he probably spent most nights in his home, not on the road. There appears to be no real correlation between the roles.

              2. The bodies were not dropped on his carman route as far as is known, and probably not while he was actually working. Again there appears to be few similarities in the relative positions - Trucker and Carman.

              3. Delivery of meat, even if such was a regular item does not make one a butcher or give one any knowledge of butchery. No correlation of occupations is displayed at all here.

              4. The cat meat business as I understand it did not actually involve a great deal of butchery. The carcasses are processed by the slaughter house, the cat meat business merely processes what is delivered. Here there may be a limited degree of correlation, but it is far from proven.

              Steve

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                Since my first three years out of school was as a butchers apprentice, and for the last twenty years I have driven an 18 wheeler, I guess my defense is totally shot....
                no wonder you keep pressing as your favorite suspect a well dressed well to do individual wicky! trying to shift the blame I see....

                just kidding.
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                  Okay, let´s throw a little something into the Lechmere bonfire.

                  Here´s a question for you all: are there any occupations that typically involve a raised level of criminal activity/serial murder?

                  The question may seem an odd one, but it really isn´t.

                  Earlier today, I posted a link to a documentary from last year:

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEwLXwPZuh4

                  It is a docu about how it has been revealed that long-haul truckers in the US are very common guests on death row. It is stated in the docu that:

                  -There are 25 men, all former truckers, who are jailed for serial murder in the US.

                  -There are around 500 unsolved murder cases where victims have been found dumped along the freeways of the US.

                  -In these cases, 200 of the suspects are truck drivers.

                  - The bulk of the victims are prostitutes, working the truck stops.

                  I find this immensely interesting. It firmly establishes the truckers role as one that offers itself up to abductions, rape and murder. The figures blew me away.

                  Oddly, this is not the one and only occupational category that has been connected to violent crime over the years. At the University of Windsor, criminology professor Amy Fitzgerald states that statistics show a clear link between slaughterhouses, butchery and brutal crime. It is, she says, an empirical fact. Whenever abbatoirs are introduced into a community, the levels of violent crime follows suit. It is speculated that a desensitation is what causes this.

                  In this case, the link:

                  https://eatingplantsdotorg.wordpress...violent-crime/

                  is useful.

                  But where is the applicability for the Lechmere case? Well, Lechmere was the equivalent of todays truckers, he too was in the goods transport business. He was exposed to prostitution along his routes. And he was involved with butchery, owing to his work, and possibly also to the Lechmere family tradition of processing horse meat.

                  Of course, todays trucking is different from the carmanship of the East End in 1888. And of course, our society differs from theirs.

                  But it seems that Lechmere was involved in the two occupations that are the only ones, as far as I can tell, that have been connected roughly to the types of crimes the Ripper made himself guilty of.

                  Now, if I may be so bold, please do not offer the answer "So now every trucker is a serial killer?" "And every butcher hits the town, meatcleaver in hand, after working hours?"

                  These facts are worthy of a much better and more profound discussion.

                  Anybody?
                  Hi Fish
                  Very interesting. I need to ruminate on it a little.
                  Thanks for posting.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
                    The cat meat business as I understand it did not actually involve a great deal of butchery.
                    They'd have had a job getting a dead horse into the poky front room of 29 Hanbury Street for Harriet Hardiman to chop it up.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                      Gareth makes the point that a meat delivery man is no more tied to butchery than a postman is to writing. That is an interesting way to skew the perspectives: a postman is well aquainted with the letters.
                      I'm not skewing anything, and I said nothing about "being acquainted with" letters; the operative word I used was "involved in". But the postman doesn't get to write them as part of his job, does he? He just picks up and delivers what other people have prepared. His job doesn't "involve him" in letter production at all.

                      Ditto the relationship between delivering meat and butchery.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Fisherman View Post

                        Gareth makes the point that a meat delivery man is no more tied to butchery than a postman is to writing. That is an interesting way to skew the perspectives: a postman is well aquainted with the letters.

                        The Broad Street depot was handling meat to a very large extent according to the historian from the docu, and this will mean that Lechmere handled animal body parts.
                        Christer

                        Are you seriously saying that handling of meat -animal body parts as you put it gives a person a knowledge of butchery?
                        If so the same would apply to any cook in a large house, restaurant or club and today would apply to anyone who stocks up their freezer.

                        He is transporting precut pieces of meat to homes, restaurants or even local butchers, he is not involved in preparing it himself is he?

                        I really don't thing this works at all.


                        Steve

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          The typical knee jerk reaction against anything fish/lech. what a shame.

                          Here fish posts legit reports/docus about something that finds a possible correlation between ones occupation and being a serial killer.

                          I would think you all would want to digest it a little more, remove your personal animus againt the lech theory and give it a little more thought and consideration.

                          Its interesting and worthy stuff no matter how you feel about Lech as a suspect, IMHO any way.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            [QUOTE=Fisherman;423941]
                            ...and of course the answers are mostly along the expected lines. One can only hope for so much!

                            One of the points made in the docu referred to is that an advantage for the truckers is that they can dump victims in various places, making them hard to detect. Since I accept that the Ripper and the Torso killer, something there is ample evidence for, it seems that the Torso murders took advantage from the same thing.
                            And the C-5 were easy to detect.

                            The initial dumping was seemingly made where the river Wandle meets that Thames, but since that knowledge was spread, the killer chose new and varying places.
                            The dismemberment cases were done by more than one person.

                            Gareth makes the point that a meat delivery man is no more tied to butchery than a postman is to writing. That is an interesting way to skew the perspectives: a postman is well aquainted with the letters.

                            The Broad Street depot was handling meat to a very large extent according to the historian from the docu, and this will mean that Lechmere handled animal body parts.
                            Did he hunt animals?

                            All in all, just like I said, Lechmere would have
                            The Wouldhaves.
                            had ties to the only two occupations that are proven to be connected to violent crime and murder.
                            Those occupations are not "connected" to murder. It is spurious. A percentage of all murderers are truckers. You must perform regression to get the "connections".

                            That applies regardless of the desperation evinced about it.

                            It is probably just another coincidence, eh?
                            You are talking about a person who lived and worked in Whitechapel in 1888.

                            Pierre

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                              The typical knee jerk reaction against anything fish/lech. what a shame.

                              Here fish posts legit reports/docus about something that finds a possible correlation between ones occupation and being a serial killer.

                              I would think you all would want to digest it a little more, remove your personal animus againt the lech theory and give it a little more thought and consideration.

                              Its interesting and worthy stuff no matter how you feel about Lech as a suspect, IMHO any way.
                              Abby

                              I do not think many are disagreeing with the basic idea that some jobs may be shall we say more suited to a serial killer. I think the issue people are having is there seems little if any correlation between the occupations mentioned by Fish and that of Lechmere.

                              Carmen are certainly not the equivalent of present day truckers. In the mid 1800's the canal man/barge man would be, by 1888 canal use has fallen and rail use has increased so one could have said railway man either one of the engine crew or the guard, as well as canal men played the same role and had the same opportunities.

                              To be fair butchers have often been mentioned as possible suspects, levy in particular.
                              So the actual premise seems very reasonable, but needs considerably more data than a single documentary to establish such as a fact.
                              For a moment let's just accept that such is true, it just seems very hard to fit that to Lechmere and his occupation


                              Steve
                              Last edited by Elamarna; 08-02-2017, 01:44 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                But even if Lechmere did handle pre-packaged meat, how does that convert into experience of butchery?

                                Comment

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