LeGrand conspiracy

[mariab]

I went to a lot of trouble to answer Phil Carter's query about whether Le Grand was also convicted in 1886/1887, something I had researched in detail previously. Despite my outlining the reasons why I personally concluded it wasn't 'our' Le Grand, Tom completely disregards that research in post #102 and goes on to encourage more research into the 1886/87 convictions...so obviously he didn't agree with my conclusions there..

Debs, I don't think that anyone doubts that the Charles Le Grand convicted in 1886/87 was a different guy.

[mariab]

William James: Le Grand's nemesis just in vice (or more?)

Regarding Sgt James, if memory serves, he first came to know him in 1886.

During the 1891 Old Bailey extortion trial, PC William James quoted Le Grand screaming at him (during his arrest) “You, who have received £50 from Morris to put me away before!“. Sgt. James was involved in the Dr. Morris case, which went on trial at the Old Bailey against Le Grand and Demay in 1889. Sgt. James was also involved in the Pasquier case against Le Grand, which went to trial at the Marlborough Magistrates' Court in 1886.
Here an excerpt from William James' testimony at the 1889 Old Bailey trial (Dr. Morris against Demay and Le Grand), discussing the Pasquier case against Le Grand from 1886:
I have known Demay seven or eight years, and Grandy three years, or a little more, as Charles Grandy or Charles Grand, and he is better known as the French Colonel—in March, 1887, he was in custody at the Marlborough Street Police-court, and Mr. Newton, the magistrate, directed me to make special inquiries about him—he was remanded twice, and on the last occasion Mrs. Demay came to the Court, and stated in her evidence, in my hearing, that she was living with Grandy—Demay has been getting her living as a prostitute—since January, 1886, I have seen Grandy in her company hundreds of times, I may say—with the exception of five or six weeks, when he was employed in Great Tower Street in 1886 at 30s. a week, and discharged for incompetency, I have not known him in any employment—I have seen him in company with other prostitutes hundreds of times—he lives on them.
Cross-examined by Demay: I was present at Marlborough Street Police court when Grandy charged a woman with stealing his watch and chain—she was discharged.
Cross-examined by Grandy: I have been directed by my superior officer to attend the Court when cases you have been in have been heard—I did not know you had an office; I have heard you had—I attended as a witness at Bow Street when you appeared on a summons, at the instance of Batchelor, for assaulting him in the Strand—Mr. Bridge dismissed the summons—I knew nothing about the case, I only knew your character—I gave evidence—I know Planette, the woman you charged with stealing your watch and chain; she was discharged—she is not a friend of mine—I did not bring her to Bow Street—I spoke to her there—I know Mr. Ward—I believe you are living on prostitutes—I have seen you continually with Demay; you have walked Regent Street, and molested other women, and charged them at the Police-court, and all to clear them from that street in order to have the whole street clear for that woman with you.
It seems like PC James was active in law enforcement pertaining to vice, and that he was asked by the Magistrate Newton to make special inquiries about Le Grand, apparently in his activity as a pimp.
During Le Grand's 1889 trial at the Old Bailey, Sgt. James, cross examined by Le Grand himself, testified that he was unaware that Le Grand ran a private Detective Agency. NO mention of Le Grand's activity with the WVC either. Was Sgt. James pressed by someone higher up, trying to, as we say, cover their a$$?
I'm also under the impression that Debs is investigating the vendetta between PC James and Le Grand's minion James Hall?
I'm impressed about Debs' recent discovery of PC James having been indicted for murder later in life, but James' crime in question (having shot a female relative to death inside of her house during a dispute with his estranged wife) doesn't impress me as unusual in the realities of Victorian Whitechapel.
I've been entertaining a few (possibly paranoid) thoughts in another direction: Has anyone ever encountered PC William James ever in any activity together with investigator Clarke, expert in horse track fraud, or with sollicitor George Lewis? I seem to recall that ex-inspector Clarke was hired by George Lewis to protect Dr. Morris and investigate Le Grand. Sgt. James was ordered by Magistrate Newton to investigate Le Grand's pimp activities. A coincidence? And yet, Sgt. James allegedly noticed nothing about Le Grand's prominent involvement with the WVC. Interestingly enough, we can see from when Le Grand is cross-examining Sgt. James that he doesn't mention specifically his involvement with the WVC pertaining to the Ripper investigation, but only the fact that he was running a Detective Agency with Batchelor.
We know that Le Grand visited sollicitor George Lewis, once shortly before February 1889, and once prior to this together with Scanlan, both times pertaining to the Parnell/Pigott/Labouchère matter. During his 1889 trial, Le Grand claimed he had documents on himself proving he was hired by Lewis to stalk Lewis' friend Labouchère pertaining to Pigott/Parnell. Lewis reacted by obstructing Le Grand from testifying further. Le Grand also claimed to have spied Labouchère for Soames from The Times.
I would be VERY interested to see if Sgt. James had any involvement in the latter activities, since he was shadowing Le Grand from 1886-1891. Parnell was accused by The Times in 1887.

[Debra A]

The Pasquier case was March 1887, Maria.

The Old Bailey transcripts don't mention Le Grand's work as a PI in Whitechapel, you're right, but it must have been known, at least by one Lloyd's reporter, as in covering the 1891 Old Bailey case, he describes Le Grand's past activities, including this:

"..He subsequently started a private detective inquiry office, and had an office in the Strand. When the Whitechapel murders created so much excitement, this agency came prominently before the public through Le Grand's professed ability to discover the murderer by means of his agents at home and abroad.."
Lloyd's Weekly October 18th,1891

This is why (much to Tom's astonishment it seems) I think the Lloyd's report uncovered by How Brown is a very interesting one. No other paper that I have come across yet, covering the 1891 trial, makes that same link. (There may be others but I've read hundreds and not come across one yet)
So who told the Lloyd's reporter?

There are hints in another Loyd's article, covering Sgt. James trial for murdering his sister-in-law in 1903, that James may have been involved in other corrupt activities to do with property. I'm still looking into this, but the editor of Lloyd's, Thomas Catling, was involved in some sort of legal action over his paper printing those accusations.

Just editing to add- the statement about Le Grand working as a PI in Whitechapel only appears in one edition of Lloyd's for that day (the one How found), the other editions carry a different summary article of Le Grand's trial.

[Tom_Wescott]

This is why (much to Tom's astonishment it seems) I think the Lloyd's report uncovered by How Brown is a very interesting one.

I find it a very interesting report. I'm glad (and a little surprised, but not astonished) that you find it interesting as well. What's interesting is how it was quashed after one edition. Seems the Ripper was not to be brought into the coverage of Le Grand where the press was concerned. A big hush was put over it, presumably for this reason one disgruntled reported titled their coverage of the trail 'The Ripper's Pard'.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

The Pasquier case was March 1887, Maria.

Absolutely, profound apologies for writing “1886“ in my post.

Thank you so much for transcribing part of the Lloyd's Weekly report discovered by Howard Brown, Debs, as I hadn't read it before.

So who told the Lloyd's reporter?

Somehow in my mind it's not a question of who told that one reporter, but how come the other people hushed about Le Grand's official involvement in the Ripper investigation, including Le Grand himself.

Seems the Ripper was not to be brought into the coverage of Le Grand where the press was concerned. A big hush was put over it

Yep, noticed this too.

Just editing to add- the statement about Le Grand working as a PI in Whitechapel only appears in one edition of Lloyd's for that day (the one How found), the other editions carry a different summary article of Le Grand's trial.

Meaning, they cut it out later? Fascinating.

There are hints in another Loyd's article, covering Sgt. James trial for murdering his sister-in-law in 1903, that James may have been involved in other corrupt activities to do with property. I'm still looking into this, but the editor of Lloyd's, Thomas Catling, was involved in some sort of legal action over his paper printing those accusations.

Debs, legal action undertaken by William James himself, or someone up higher? Might “corrupt activities to do with property“ possibly refer to running (or being associated with) a brothel? Or just to generic, extortion-type fraud?

[Harry Poland]

OK a few co-incidences around Legrand that fantasists can concoct into webs of wonderful conspiracy whilst sober researchers can prove to be just co-incidences. As I'm neither one or the other I thought I'd just chuck them out for other people to play with:

1) According to Debs excellent research on another forum, a marriage certificate for Legrand has been discovered. If this is indeed 'our' Grande [Legrand] then Mrs. Grande lived on Ifield Road, Kensington. - In 1911, Edward Fisher (LeGrand's co-defendant when he was tried as Jackson) lived at number 35 of the same street

2) Living at 49 Ifield road (The last known address of Mrs Legrand) in 1911 was an old lady called Eliza Nelson (Nelson was possible Legrand's first known alias). There are references to an Eliza Nelson working as a stewardess on ships in the 1850s-60s

3) Also living in seperate room at the same address was the family of a retired police officer with called George James (Any relation to William James - I don't know???)

4) The woman which William James was convicted of killing had the surname Pizer

Based on the above I propose the following absurd theory just for laughs:

Legrand was born at sea a bastard with the surname Nelson, to a Ship's stewardess and fathered by a mysterious Danish diplomat.

Legrand was a bona-fide investigator who discovered that William James had provided John Pizer with a false alibi and instead of taking it to the authorities decided instead to use the information to his own advantage. As a result of this William James set out on a lifetime crusade to stitch up Legrand. If anybody can add a Royal or Masonic line to this then go for it :-)

In the meantime, once my gaffer stops looking over my shoulder I'll set out to see if there is any real connection or mere co-incidence

[Debra A]

OK a few co-incidences around Legrand that fantasists can concoct into webs of wonderful conspiracy whilst sober researchers can prove to be just co-incidences. As I'm neither one or the other I thought I'd just chuck them out for other people to play with:

1) According to Debs excellent research on another forum, a marriage certificate for Legrand has been discovered. If this is indeed 'our' Grande [Legrand] then Mrs. Grande lived on Ifield Road, Kensington. - In 1911, Edward Fisher (LeGrand's co-defendant when he was tried as Jackson) lived at number 35 of the same street

2) Living at 49 Ifield road (The last known address of Mrs Legrand) in 1911 was an old lady called Eliza Nelson (Nelson was possible Legrand's first known alias). There are references to an Eliza Nelson working as a stewardess on ships in the 1850s-60s

3) Also living in seperate room at the same address was the family of a retired police officer with called George James (Any relation to William James - I don't know???)

4) The woman which William James was convicted of killing had the surname Pizer

Based on the above I propose the following absurd theory just for laughs:

Legrand was born at sea a bastard with the surname Nelson, to a Ship's stewardess and fathered by a mysterious Danish diplomat.

Legrand was a bona-fide investigator who discovered that William James had provided John Pizer with a false alibi and instead of taking it to the authorities decided instead to use the information to his own advantage. As a result of this William James set out on a lifetime crusade to stitch up Legrand. If anybody can add a Royal or Masonic line to this then go for it :-)

In the meantime, once my gaffer stops looking over my shoulder I'll set out to see if there is any real connection or mere co-incidence

I'm neither one or the other either, I'm a drunken researcher apparently!
But I'll stick my oar in anyway...Electoral registers show Eliza Nelson was never at 49 Ifield Rd. at the same time as Elizabeth Grande. Elizabeth was at #16 until at least 1830, Eliza Nelson (who was born in Hackney) was there from 1907.

Dorcas Pizer and her sister Laura Bertha Constance Pizer(Sgt James' sister in law and wife) were both born in Wiltshire with no visible connections to the East End or Poland so far.

And by a complete coincidence-just to prove they happen all the time -Also at 49 Ifiled Rd was a Harry/Henry Hoare . And I'm just about to answer a post on another forum about a man of the very same name who was an H Division Met PC who claimed to have known all or one of the victims (depending on which paper you read) that I've been researching! ..but he's not the same man..

Thanks for the compliment on my research though. It's nice to see someone actually follows the research, Harry.

[Harry Poland]

Thanks Debra

I think that the whole Dorcas Pizer thing is a red herring, but I'm going to follow it through just to make sure.

I also think that, the fact that Fisher lived on the same street confirms with a reasonable degree of certianty that 'your' Grande of the marriage certificate is 'our' Legrand

Regarding Nelson, the 'straw man' theory which I'm looking into is that Elizabeth Nelson was Legrand's mother / aunt, with Legrand installing his wife in the property after Nelson's death. So far I've uncovered nothing to suggest that Eliza Nelson was ever anything other than a spinster and a cook.

As I've said elsewhere I don't fancy LG as JTR (we'll probably have to agree to disagree on that one), he doesn't fit the profile and he was too visible in Whitechapel during the murders for nobody to say: "Yes, I saw victim X on the night of her murder. I saw them with YOU Mr Legrand"

Still LG fascinates me for what he was. I'm determined to unravel the enigma of the man, and every blind alley that I go up, I at least find out who he wasn't

As another interesting aside, Dr Morris' solicitor in the Grandy / Demay case claimed to employ an ex-police inspector by the name of Clark. I wonder if this was the same Clark[e] implicated and later acquitted by arch con man Harry Benson in the 'trial of detectives', a national scandal in 1877??

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18771022-name-360&div=t18771022-805#highlight

[Debra A]

Hi Harry,

Good luck with the research.

I can't find any other man who the marriage certificate applies to if not Le Grand,that and the small window of opportunity for his marriage that falls into exactly the right time slot the wedding took place , plus Elizabeth appearing in the 1911 census alone but married while Le Grand was also now listed as married at Parkhurst. I didn't know about the Fisher connection-there seemed to be a heck of a lot of Edward Fishers living in London when I did a brief check, so thanks for that.

We know Le Grand spoke with a foreign accent as it's mentioned in court cases so I can't see Eliza Nelson born Hackney being any relation to be honest but good luck with that avenue of research.

I don't think I have ever said that I fancy LG as JTR either!! My interest in him is as a contemorary suspect mentioned but not named by the newspapers in 1892. Sgt James thought he was capable of being the Ripper.

LG fascinates me also. I first got interest in him through Tom's Berner Street articles in Ripper Notes when I was researching another Victorian conman (who incidentally was also named as the Ripper by a US newspaper after he arrived in St Louis from London and murdered a man)

I've looked at Clark for some other reason before I seem to recall. It might have been in connection with George Lewis and the Parnell Inquiry, I'll have to check to now though.

Debs

[Harry Poland]

Sorry Debs I assumed that you had LG as the ripper, well you know what they say about assumptions.

You're correct about Dorcas Pizer, no link at all with leather apron.

Eliza Nelson seems to go back quite a long way as always single and always a cook, another dead end there - The ships Eliza Nelson was born in Glasgow.

I've been frying my head trying to crack Legrand for a week solid now. Nothing certain before 1886 (I'm 50/50 over Christian Nelson convicted 1877), nothing certain after 1908 (released 1912? 1917? Deported?)

I'm now clutching at straws chasing a Charles Johnson simply because he was called Charles, Johnson is slightly Scandinavian sounding and according to the electoral registers he lived on Charlotte street in the late 1870s, following that a bit more masochism with the Danish census.

Much to my wife's consternation I've even got a Legrand board in the kitchen with everything pinned to it.

Re-reading the Dr Morris case (over and again) some things in it lead me to believe that Legrand's detective agency may have been at least semi legit:

1) He made attempts to contact Mr. Hester, presumably as a witness
2) In shadowing Morris he sought to speak to numerous servants and the postman. Why try to build a case when you can simply make one up.

The more I look at this case the more I think that in 1888-89 at least Legrand was More Glenn Mulcaire than Prof Moriarty.

By the way I've been reading your stuff on this and other forums about LG and you've done some top draw research. Thank you.

Here is the link to the trial of detectives of 1877, this is probably our Clarke

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18771022-805&div=t18771022-805&terms=clarke|frogatt#highlight

Apparently there is a book on Clarke - The Chieftain by Chris Payne. Perhaps Mr. Payne has dug up something on LG in his research.

[mariab]

I've looked at Clark for some other reason before I seem to recall. It might have been in connection with George Lewis and the Parnell Inquiry, I'll have to check to now though.

Apparently Clarke was employed by George Lewis in the Parnell inquiry, while Le Grand claimed he was hired by Soames to “investigate“ Lewis' good friend, Labouchere. And apparently Clarke was employed by Lewis to investigate Le Grand. Small world?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5445&highlight=The+Primrose+Leagu e

[Debra A]

Le Grand claimed to have been hired by George Lewis not Soames. He first made the claim at Marlborough Street when brought up on charges to do with the Morris case. George Lewis would later state at the Old Bailey that Le Grand came to him with a PI named Scanlan and a letter of recommendation from the Irish Times and looking to be employed on the Parnell Inquiry. He was, according to Lewis, turned away, as he was on a second lone visit to Lewis.
The mention of Soames name comes up because Lewis was asked at the same CCC trial, if he thought (knew if?) Le Grand was working for Soames, shadowing Piggott and Labouchere. The context of that question is unclear in the transcripts and to my knowledge no one has yet discovered a fuller version of that Old Bailey questioning of Lewis.

[Debra A]

Hi Harry-just quickly.
Le Grand was definitely in prison 1908 until his probable deportation in 1917, after being convicted as George Jackson and breaking the terms of his licence. He received a new sentence plus he had to serve the remaining time of his old sentence.

[Harry Poland]

Debs. Just as a matter of technicality, I'm not sure that Legrand's extra sentence was due to breaking the terms of previous licence, which would normally run concurrently with the later term of PS. I think it more probable that he was convicted as being an 'Habitual Criminal' and sentenced under the 1908 Prevention of Crimes Act. If I'm right here then this would have been a judicial decision which will be preserved somewhere in the records.

I've now found a George Jackson appearing in 1917 tax records in Aldersgate Street. No records of him at this place in 1916 so ties with date of release.

[Debra A]

Harry, the records found by Rob, which have been posted somewhere, show Jackson received four years penal servitude plus remanet of former sentence (which was just short of four years) He was due to be released in Jan. 1917, eligible for licence in 1915 but the secretary of state withheld his licence and he was not released. The refusal to release him on licence again in 1915 may have been due to the act you mention.