LeGrand conspiracy

[lynn cates]

spiritual misery

Hello Mac.

"'Thriving' could mean whatever Balfour had in his mind.

But, let's be clear: the suggestion of pimping came about because it was believed that 'wages' meant financial gain. It is not the case."

Well and good. I'm open to interpretation for this. But it is difficult to see what precisely Balfour meant otherwise.

Let's start with:

"The wages of sin is death."

Right. Now do a Leibnizian substitution:

"He was thriving from their death."

Obviously we need an emendation, for the Apostle means a spiritual death--not a physical one.

"He was thriving from their spiritual death."

Another tweak changes this to:

"The man was doing well as a result of their spiritual misery."

OK. But how was he doing well? Perhaps he was trying to appear spiritually justified next to these "fallen women"? Very well. Then perhaps he needed no Sunday absolution etc., or his penance was lessened.

But I wonder if Balfour was concerned with his comparative spiritual condition?

I'd be delighted to hear any alternative to this.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

It was an interesting idea Mac,thanks for posting your thoughts. Just shows that it wasn't crystal clear who or what Jabez was referring to.

Here's an 1898 newspaper article which seems to confirm that the 'wages of sin' also referred to financial gain from prostitution.

[Fleetwood Mac]

It was an interesting idea Mac,thanks for posting your thoughts. Just shows that it wasn't crystal clear who or what Jabez was referring to.

Here's an 1898 newspaper article which seems to confirm that the 'wages of sin' also referred to financial gain from prostitution.

[ATTACH]12564[/ATTACH]

Hands held up.

Clearly there is evidence of 'wages of sin' amounting to financial gain.

Still feel Balfour wasn't necessarily talking of financial gain. Could go either way.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Lynn:

Thriving form their predicament could well mean someone like Grainger 'treating' women. They were happy to receive as they were pretty much destitute; he was happy to give as a pretext to his objective.

[Debra A]

Have you not been swayed by mine and Rob's recent finding that the ex detective prisoner who pointed out the 'Ripper' in Parkhurst prison, to Jabez, was almost certainly Sgt. James? The detective who had been following Le Grand's criminal career for several years. The detective who arrested Le Grand in 1891.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Have you not been swayed by mine and Rob's recent finding that the ex detective prisoner who pointed out the 'Ripper' in Parkhurst prison, to Jabez, was almost certainly Sgt. James? The detective who had been following Le Grand's criminal career for several years? The detective who arrested Le Grand in 1891.

I think it's a plus.

But then I think the introduction to the two men described is a negative.

How could he introduce the two men as something like:

The villainous ruffian and the apparently respectable man,

and be talking about the same man?

Regardless of who said what when and which detectives were involved, I'm struggling to reconcile this.

Plus, he may have known Le Grand well, but does this mean he didn't know someone else well?

I don't think it's conclusive.

[Debra A]

And Tom thought I was being nit picky for even daring to suggest the account may still have been about Grainger, despite his conclusion it was Le Grand! And all this before the detective James find.
Thanks for the explanation FM.

[lynn cates]

treating

Hello Mac.

"Thriving form their predicament could well mean someone like Grainger 'treating' women."

Thanks. I am a bit dense here. Is it something like "Le Grand stood treat to some prostitutes and then profited from them"?

I wonder, though, if this still implies a pimp?

Or do you mean "How he treated them--abuse"?

As I said, I'm a bit dense here.

Cheers.
LC

[Fleetwood Mac]

And Tom thought I was being nit picky for even daring to suggest the account may still have been about Grainger, despite his conclusion it was Le Grand! And all this before the detective James find.
Thanks for the explanation FM.

Well, it's a good shout for Le Grand.

But, were I a juror in a court of law I'd want to know:

a) Why the two contrasting descriptions?

and

b) What exactly did you mean by 'thriving from the wages of their sins"?

For me, it's not conclusive.

70/30 maybe?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hello Mac.

"Thriving form their predicament could well mean someone like Grainger 'treating' women."

Thanks. I am a bit dense here. Is it something like "Le Grand stood treat to some prostitutes and then profited from them"?

I wonder, though, if this still implies a pimp?

Or do you mean "How he treated them--abuse"?

As I said, I'm a bit dense here.

Cheers.
LC

'Treating' in those days meant buying women drinks or things/anything.

If you're destitute and needy then I suppose you're at the mercy of anyone with a few quid who will take advantage with ulterior motives.

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Mac. Ah, then in my first sense. I see. Thanks.

But would this not be to use them later?

Cheers.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

People being obtuse

It's a shame this is necessary, but sadly it seems to be.

On jtrforums.com, Tom Wescott pretends - for reasons I don't really understand - that Debs was the only one who had doubts about whether Balfour was referring to Le Grand. The truth is that there were discrepancies with both Le Grand and Grainger, and a number of people expressed doubts about which man Balfour was referring to.

Obviously the new evidence Debs found has resolved the question. But that's far from vindicating Tom's claim that it was "crystal clear" all along. It wasn't.

By ‘people’ you mean Nemo and Howard. Nemo looked at the evidence and came to agree it could only be Le Grand. Others may have done the same and not posted as much, which is understandable. But just because one or two people chose, for whatever reason, to say the sky is orange, doesn’t change the reality that it was blue all along. The issue in question is ‘Was Jabez talking about Le Grand or Grainger’. The fact he was quite clear that his suspect was a pimp rules out Grainger. Thus it’s “crystal clear” it must have been the other guy. Don’t confuse matters just to be difficult, and once again, please stop your habit of taking me to task over here for something I said over there, when it’s not even the same discussion. Is that a reasonable request?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I completely agree with Debs and Mac here. Based on the available evidence, it's doubtful that Jabez was talking about Le Grand here. I also agree that 'wages' has nothing to do with money, and therefore 'thriving from the wages of their sins' could in no way mean that he was making money from prostitutes. Clearly, I can't see the forest for the trees and have allowed myself to become blinded by my own biases and zest. I'm sure that any day now, we'll discover that the guy who arrested Grainger also murdered someone and was in the same prison at the same time as Sgt James and Jabez. That disovery should be coming...any...time...now...

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

{Post 192.}The issue in question is ‘Was Jabez talking about Le Grand or Grainger’. The fact he was quite clear that his suspect was a pimp rules out Grainger. Thus it’s “crystal clear” it must have been the other guy.

{Post 193.}Based on the available evidence, it's doubtful that Jabez was talking about Le Grand here.

Huh? Posts #192 and #193 don't quite add up.
I starkly disagree that it's doubtful. So far this matter is inconclusive, but it might be cleared out some day, with additional evidence. And we see that new evidence turns up almost every week. We have to figure out if Jabez' first quote and his second quote are related at all. I'd like to get hold of the Jabez text in question in its entirety.

I completely agree with Debs and Mac here. {...} I also agree that 'wages' has nothing to do with money, and therefore 'thriving from the wages of their sins' could in no way mean that he was making money from prostitutes.

Huh again?? Debs just proved with the attachment in her post #182 via an 1898 newspaper article that the “wages of sin“ also referred to financial gain from prostitution.

[Debra A]

Tom's just trying to be funny Maria. He obviously doesn't read the posts properly or follow full discussions as they develop, at all.
I was just interested in FM still having doubts about it being Le Grand, even after the Sgt. James find. Now there's a hard man to convince!