Why isn't La Bruckman talked about? Is what is supposed true about him?

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Michael,

I'm just now seeing this thread. I have to agree with Wolf that there's no relation here. However, one of Le Grand's popular nicknames was 'The French Colonel' and it is actually possible he was in America in April 1891.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Mike.

Arbie LaBruckman was suspect of killing Carrie Brown initially, though how seriously, it is unknown. Could Arbie LaBruckman (Frenchy) have been LeGrand? I don't have the information of where LeGrand was in April, and I don't know who might, though I suspect Tom Wescott might know.

It's just somewhat coincidental (as are many things in the JTR world) that there was a victim with massive amounts of mutilation in Brown. She was a prostitute. Her lodging house or room for the night was also owned by a man of Irish Descent (Fitzgerald). There was a man with a foreign accent, nicknamed Frenchy that was at least in the general area and was considered to be a baaaad man like LeGrand. He also seems to have been in jail in 1889 in London, much like LeGrand, and his name is French and actually sounds totally made up.

There are several things wrong with your theory, I'm afraid, not the least of which is the fact that La Bruckman was able to provide an alibi for the night of the murder of Carrie Brown. This alibi, that he was at Tommy Bennett’s lodging house at No. 81 James Street, was fully corroborated by the people at the lodging house and the police dropped him as a suspect. He had nothing to do with Carrie Brown’s murder.

It should also be pointed out that there was enough information provided by La Bruckman himself, and people who knew him, to both track his movements and prove who he said he was: a 29 year old, originally from Morocco, who had moved to New York with his mother and sister in 1870, and who had become a cattleman on board cattle boats which operated between New York and London and who had done this since the age of 15. There is absolutely no evidence that he was arrested or in jail in London in 1889. He was not LeGrand

Brown’s body was mutilated but there were not “massive amounts” and the mutilation didn’t compare with that inflicted upon the Whitechapel victims. The man who owned the East River Hotel was not named Fitzgerald (he was merely the 21 year old night doorman and sometime assistant bartender) but James Jennings. The Lower East Side was filled with men with foreign accents and “Frenchy” was a common nickname because of this and the Water Street area around the hotel where Brown was murdered was considered one of the worst in the city and was filled with “baaaaad” men. None of this connects Charles LeGrand with Arbie LaBruckman.

Wolf.

[The Good Michael]

Just a thought:

LeGrand was jailed in late 1891. He was also jailed in 1889 for 18 months. I think at the time of Carrie Brown's death in April 1891, he was free.
That is the background or the foreshadowing to my thought.

Arbie LaBruckman was suspect of killing Carrie Brown initially, though how seriously, it is unknown. Could Arbie LaBruckman (Frenchy) have been LeGrand? I don't have the information of where LeGrand was in April, and I don't know who might, though I suspect Tom Wescott might know.

It's just somewhat coincidental (as are many things in the JTR world) that there was a victim with massive amounts of mutilation in Brown. She was a prostitute. Her lodging house or room for the night was also owned by a man of Irish Descent (Fitzgerald). There was a man with a foreign accent, nicknamed Frenchy that was at least in the general area and was considered to be a baaaad man like LeGrand. He also seems to have been in jail in 1889 in London, much like LeGrand, and his name is French and actually sounds totally made up.

There seems to have been no real corroboration of where he came from and really who he was. It doesn't even seem as if officials checked him out. It took reporters to do that.

If they are the same men, could LeGrand have been crossing the ocean to follow a lead? Or was he the murderer?

Maybe someone (Tom) who has more knowledge of LeGrand's movements can jump in.

Cheers,

Mike

[robhouse]

Wolf,

I sent you my email in a private message. I have had the same problem... the articles I had published in Ripperologist have a lot of mistakes in them too.

Rob H

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Rob.

If you are interested I can e-mail you copies of two of the articles (the second article, The New York Affair part 2, can be found here on the Casebook) if you want to leave me a private message with your e-mail address. Unfortunately, some of what I wrote several years ago has now been proved to be incorrect, especially the weight I attached to Michael Conlon's work at a time when I didn't have access to the sources he had.

Who might have killed Brown? I am now leaning towards the "Danish Farmhand," information about him can be found at http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=760

Wolf.

[robhouse]

Well, I would be very interested to hear about your findings... I assume that you don't have any idea who actually did kill Carrie Brown? I think you should publish something anyways... I don't have the articles you mentioned, but from the sound of it, you have done more research since writing them.

RH

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Rob.

I wrote a lengthy article which was published in Ripper Notes # 16, 17 and 19. This was the most in depth article ever written on the Carrie Brown murder, but, as there’s so very little that has actually been published on the crime, that’s not saying a lot. In the last six years I have spent thousands of dollars on trips to places like New York and Salem Mass., and have put together the largest collection of Brown related material in the world, however. I may or may not write an article on La Bruckman but I am writing a book on the Brown murder. To a certain extent, therefore, I already know, and have already published, “what actually happened with Carrie Brown, and with these other characters (La Bruckman, Ben Ali, Frenchy #1 and 2, etc).”

So, what does all this mean? Well, for one thing I am without a doubt the authority on the Brown murder. I don’t say this egotistically but state it as a fact based on the vast amount of time spent and research I have done on the case. When I wrote “Why anyone would want to do this is beyond me since there is absolutely no evidence that Arbie La Bruckman had anything to do with the Carrie Brown murder let alone the Whitechapel Murders,” I did so based on my many years of researching the case so I hardly “jumped to conclusions” about La Bruckman. As I have posted, La Bruckman’s involvement in the case was minimal. He was briefly of interest to the police because the newspapers made him a suspect but was quickly cleared and released. His fantasy that he was put on trial for the Ripper murders is just that, a fantasy. Unfortunately, Michael Conlon made much more of La Bruckman than the evidence proves, or even provides. He was fitted into the mantle of Jack the Ripper like a square peg being pounded into a round hole.

Wolf.

[robhouse]

Why anyone would want to do this is beyond me since there is absolutely no evidence that Arbie La Bruckman had anything to do with the Carrie Brown murder let alone the Whitechapel Murders.

My thoughts on this, as with anything else related to research, is simply to uncover as many facts as possible. Despite your claim that Carrie Brown was not a Ripper victim, I could not either agree or disagree with your argument without actually seeing the coroners reports myself... and if La Bruckman was not Frenchy #2, then who was Frenchy #2? I believe Frenchy #2 was arrested, correct? Also, if I am not mistaken, Ameer Ben Ali was convicted of the murder of Carrie Brown although it was later overturned.

Again, my point is simply that the goal is to discover what actually happened with Carrie Brown, and with these other characters (La Bruckman, Ben Ali, Frenchy #1 and 2, etc). After all, someone must have killed her. I just dont like it when people choose not follow up potential leads after jumping to the conclusion that it is not worth it. I am not claiming that you are doing this, but again, since I have not seen your work, or the original documents, I would not venture to agree or disagree with your conclusions. The best thing, in my opinion, would be for someone to find and post the original documentation so that others can see them, and decide for themselves whether or not it is worth following up.

Rob H

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi MB.

So what is true about him?
He existed, he was questioned in connection with Carrie Brown then said he was arrested in connection with Jack the Ripper?

That’s about it. He had no relation to Carrie Brown or her murder or Ameer Ben Ali. He spent the night of the murder at Tommy Bennett’s lodging house at No.81 James street and this was fully corroborated by several people there. He did travel between New York and London on board cattleboats but on what dates he was in London is anybodies guess. It should be pointed out that when the New York World first broke the “Cattleman”
story it was reported in the press that several telegrams flew back and forth between the NYPD and London. Given the timing it is likely that these had something to do with La Bruckman but it is obvious that, since La Bruckman was so quickly dismissed as a suspect, London had no evidence against him or had evidence that disproved his supposed arrest.

Rob.

Although I plan to write an in depth article about La Bruckman as a suspect I can’t now say when this might be published, what with the fate of Ripper Notes being at this point unknown.

I am just wondering what is the source for the "facts" you state in your post, such as for example, where you say LaBruckman was not Frenchy #2? What do you have to back this up? Or the part where you say LaBruckman was not cruel to animals?

This information comes from various New York City newspaper reports which covered the murder and subsequent investigation. These reports I found, much to my amazement, when I got a copy of the District Attorney’s Scrapbook; the same D A’s Scrapbook which Mr. Conlon used to write his articles. Information found there included interviews with several people who knew “Frenchy No.2,” who provided not only a description of the man but also his name, part of his history and where he lived as well as an interview with him. This man was not Arbie La Bruckman and he could not be confused with him.

Information about La Bruckman also comes from this source as well as other newspaper reports (of which I have probably the world’s largest collection dealing with the Brown murder) in which people who knew La Bruckman vouched for his name and reliability. The only evidence that La Bruckman was a sadist with the animals under his charge was from the anonymous letter – which contained errors tending to show that the writer didn’t know La Bruckman that well – which was sent to the World. No one who knew La Bruckman corroborated this, quite the opposite.

I also found that although La Bruckman sailed on the National Line he also sailed on other lines as well. This means that one would have to go through all the crew lists from ships who sailed into London from the New York area during the murders and to be able to recognize which alias La Bruckman was using since he appears to have used several of them. Why anyone would want to do this is beyond me since there is absolutely no evidence that Arbie La Bruckman had anything to do with the Carrie Brown murder let alone the Whitechapel Murders.

Wolf.

[robhouse]

Dear Wolf,

I was at one time much interested in LaBruckman, after reading Conlon's dissertations, and I know you two have debated this aggressively to put it mildly. Did you ever write a dissertation on LaBruckman? I am just wondering what is the source for the "facts" you state in your post, such as for example, where you say LaBruckman was not Frenchy #2? What do you have to back this up? Or the part where you say LaBruckman was not cruel to animals?

Again, I am just asking for the source you base these claims on.

I do remember that Conlon determined that LaBruckman was a foreman drover and slaughterman for the National Line, and also that boats from this line were in London docks during all the Ripper crimes. At one point I was thinking of trying to track down the crew lists for these ships to see if LaBruckman was in London on the murder dates, but I never got around to it.

Most of the crew lists are apparently at the Maritime History Archive, Memorial University of Newfoundland, St John's Newfoundland, Canada. A small number are also at the National Maritime Museum, Maritime Information Centre, Romney Rd, London.

Conlon also wrote the following to me in an email:

"During the Nichols murder: there were two National Line ships in port in London - the 'Greece' and the 'Helvetia'. The National Line ship 'Italy' left the evening of the Aug. 30, probably before the murder. The 'Greece' left London for N.Y. shortly after the murder was discovered on the 31st.

During the Chapman muder: the National Line ships 'Egypt', "Denmark","Canada" and perhaps "Italy" and "Greece" were in London."

I think that for anyone interested in La Bruckman, or for that matter Ameer Ben Ali, a good place to start would be to track down the crew lists for the National line... you could start with the boats above.

Rob House

[babybird67]

thanks Wolf and Mike

very informative!

[Mort Belfry]

So where does he belong on a list of suspects of decreasing credibility?

After James Kelly but before Dr Cohn?

[The Good Michael]

If you haven't done so already, go here: http://www.casebook.org/about_the_ca...0la%20Bruckman

As Wolf says, much of the dissertation is speculative. It is confusing when trying to pull the facts from the fat. If I remember correctly, it was a flash in the pan that amounted to nothing.

Mike

[Mort Belfry]

Thanks Wolf, that was the sort of thing I was hoping to hear.

So what is true about him?
He existed, he was questioned in connection with Carrie Brown then said he was arrested in connection with Jack the Ripper?

What was his relation to the Carrie Brown in the first place? Was he just in the vicinity? Was he acquaintances with Ameer Ben Ali? Is there any credible suspect for Frenchy no 2 or is it quite likely to have been Ali who killed Brown? Is there evidence that La Bruckman was ever in England? Are there any Ripper dates he definitely would have missed?

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

The two articles that MB linked to can also be found in the 2006 book Ripperology, the Best of Ripperologist Magazine. Unfortunately they’re not worth the paper they’re printed on.

There is no cover up regarding La Bruckman on Casebook. In fact he was at one time heavily discussed on the boards but at a time when the author of the La Bruckman theory, Michael Conlon, posted here. At that time Mr. Conlon was the only researcher who had seen the original sources, such as the New York District Attorney’s Scrapbooks, that he used to formulate his theory. This made it difficult to discuss La Bruckman with an educated opinion since no one other than Conlon had one. When this situation changed, Conlon’s theory took a beating.

The theory is this: Arbie La Bruckman, a drover on cattleboats which sailed between New York and London, was arrested in London and charged with the Whitechapel Murders. Amazingly, La Bruckman was also the number one suspect in the Jack the Ripper murder of Carrie Brown in New York in 1891. What were the odds of this being merely a coincidence? Arbie La Bruckman must therefore be Jack the Ripper.

Firstly, the London evidence. La Bruckman claimed that he was arrested, charged, and put on trial for being Jack the Ripper but was released after he was found innocent, a story he told to several people. This never happened. No record of his arrest and no mention of his name in connection with the Whitechapel Murder Investigation has ever been found and no one ever stood trial for being the Ripper. Worse, La Bruckman constantly changed his story when interviewed by the New York press so that first there was a trial, then there wasn’t a trial. First he was paid £100 in compensation then he was paid £500. First he was held for two weeks then it became four weeks then six weeks. It is clear that none of this ever really happened.

Secondly, the Carrie Brown murder. Carrie Brown was not murdered by Jack the Ripper, the autopsy report would tend to confirms this, so there is no connection between the New York and the London murders. Arbie La Bruckman’s description does not match that of the man who murdered Carrie Brown, it wasn’t even close. The New York Police did not discount the description of the killer as Conlon states. La Bruckman was not “Frenchy No. 2,” the number one suspect in the Brown murder (a fact which can be found within the District Attorney’s Scrapbooks). More than one person who knew La Bruckman stated that he was no sadist with the animals in his charge and in fact was a very conscientious and dependable worker who some ship’s captains asked for by name when crewing their ships. La Bruckman was a minor suspect known as “the Cattleman” who came to police attention because of speculation in the Press based on an anonymous letter. He was arrested in New Jersey, interviewed by a NYPD detective, able to give an alibi for his whereabouts on the night of the murder and was released.

La Bruckman is probably one of the worst suspects ever put forward as Jack the Ripper but one of the best lessons on why suspect based writing should be read, and believed, with caution.

Wolf.