Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Chris]

They may have simply assumed he was a masturbator because he was insane.

I think the straightforward explanation is that they believed he was a masturbator because they were told he was.

I agree that there's no implication that he masturbated in public. But given the overcrowded living conditions, it's not hard to imagine that people would have been aware of it anyway.

[robhouse]

So whereīs the list of psychotic killers who left no clues, who were silent and who got away with multiple murder?

Richard Chase - 6 victims
Tsutomu Miyazaki - 4 victims
Nikolai Dzumagaliev - 9+ victims
Bobby Joe McCauley - 7+ victims
Hadden Clark - 2-15 victims
Marc Sappington - 3-4 victims
Jorge Beltrao Negromonte - 2+ victims
Herbert Mullin - 13 victims
Ed Gein - 2 victims
Robert Napper - 3+ victims (also serial rapist, over 70 attacks)
Otis Toole - 6+ victims
Ramen Raghav - 35+ victims
Juan Corona - 25 victims
Peter Bryan - 3 victims
Kenneth Erksine - 7-11 victims

Possibly Schizophrenic

Peter Sutcliffe - probably faked it.
Gary Heidnik - diagnosed schizo-affective
Andrei Chikatilo - possible schizophrenic
Joseph Kallinger - may have faked insanity

I will add that many of the above psychotic serial killers also were post-mortem mutilators (like Jack the Ripper), and many engaged in cannibalism, evisceration, removing organs, etc.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Jeff,

Allow me to clarify.

Anyone who believes Sir Robert Anderson would not have lied for "personal kudos" needs a serious reality check.

I recommend a close reading of TLSOMOL and some of his other anecdotes.

Regards,

Simon

I believe Begg said anyone is welcome to challenge Martin Fido. however they need to do so on the same academic critia as Martin Orginally did so..

And as Begg himself said he was unable to do that and he quoted Martin, I really don't know how an average 'Joe' like ourselves are gonna achieve that..

Hopefully we have hope to aspire

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Objection! Hearsay information

The issue (no pun intended) I find troublesome is that some commentators imply or directly suggest that Aaron Kosminski was a "compulsive public masturbator", for which there is zero evidence. In fact, I think he would have been arrested for that, so it seems entirely unlikely.

The Victorians firmly believed that masturbation led to insanity and horrible physical ailments.

They may have simply assumed he was a masturbator because he was insane.

Or, one of his siblings burst in on him at an inopportune time. Who knows? I think it is being muddled up with the claims of stains on the shawl, which have just as much probability to be mucus from the nose or throat, if they're anything at all.

I dont believe that Jacob Cohen required any medical aptitude.. He simply reported the bleeding obvious..what his eyes had witnessed

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi, so he did. Sorry, I overlooked that. However there seems to be no mention of this is his medical records while at Leavesdon, at least none that I have come across. He was not dangerous and moved about freely and there was no need, apparently, for restraint.

There is no reason to believe he was Jack the Ripper.

Amanda

There are few records about aron. Most of them simply tell us of his physical condition. So if he did continue to masturbate it would have been reported.

My understanding was that this was unlikely once he reached 'Burn out'

Yours Jeff

[Jeff Leahy]

Richard Chase - 6 victims
Tsutomu Miyazaki - 4 victims
Nikolai Dzumagaliev - 9+ victims
Bobby Joe McCauley - 7+ victims
Hadden Clark - 2-15 victims
Marc Sappington - 3-4 victims
Jorge Beltrao Negromonte - 2+ victims
Herbert Mullin - 13 victims
Ed Gein - 2 victims
Robert Napper - 3+ victims (also serial rapist, over 70 attacks)
Otis Toole - 6+ victims
Ramen Raghav - 35+ victims
Juan Corona - 25 victims
Peter Bryan - 3 victims
Kenneth Erksine - 7-11 victims

Possibly Schizophrenic

Peter Sutcliffe - probably faked it.
Gary Heidnik - diagnosed schizo-affective
Andrei Chikatilo - possible schizophrenic
Joseph Kallinger - may have faked insanity

I will add that many of the above psychotic serial killers also were post-mortem mutilators (like Jack the Ripper), and many engaged in cannibalism, evisceration, removing organs, etc.

They covered Nappier at length on 'Broadmoore' last night..dont know if you can get it in USA but should be on FIVE player

Yours Jeff

[Amanda Sumner]

I dont believe that Jacob Cohen required any medical aptitude.. He simply reported the bleeding obvious..what his eyes had witnessed

Yours Jeff

Odd that there seems to be no evidence of this in his daily record while incarcerated. Perhaps it was a very brief interlude. After all, his admission paper stated that his illness started when he was 25. Quite a while after MJK, it seems.

[Fisherman]

Richard Chase - 6 victims
Tsutomu Miyazaki - 4 victims
Nikolai Dzumagaliev - 9+ victims
Bobby Joe McCauley - 7+ victims
Hadden Clark - 2-15 victims
Marc Sappington - 3-4 victims
Jorge Beltrao Negromonte - 2+ victims
Herbert Mullin - 13 victims
Ed Gein - 2 victims
Robert Napper - 3+ victims (also serial rapist, over 70 attacks)
Otis Toole - 6+ victims
Ramen Raghav - 35+ victims
Juan Corona - 25 victims
Peter Bryan - 3 victims
Kenneth Erksine - 7-11 victims

Possibly Schizophrenic

Peter Sutcliffe - probably faked it.
Gary Heidnik - diagnosed schizo-affective
Andrei Chikatilo - possible schizophrenic
Joseph Kallinger - may have faked insanity

I will add that many of the above psychotic serial killers also were post-mortem mutilators (like Jack the Ripper), and many engaged in cannibalism, evisceration, removing organs, etc.

Hi Rob!

I asked for killers who left no clues and who were silent.

You begin your list with Richard Trenton Chase, about whom it is said in CrimeLibrary:

"The FBI were already on the case. Robert Ressler and Russ Vorpagel developed a profile of who they were probably looking for. They figured him for a disorganized killer as opposed to an organized one, with some clues pointing toward the possibility of psychosis. He clearly had not planned these crimes and did little to hide or destroy evidence. He left footprints and fingerprints, and had probably walked around in daylight with blood on his clothing. In other words, he gave little thought to the consequences."

This is the exact difference that tells Chase apart from a killer like the Ripper - there was clearly no planning, and he left all sorts of traces and clues on the murder spots. He seemingly did not care one bit about the consequences of what he had done.
The police concluded that the killer may have been a psychotic one from these details.

I am not interested in people who have killed under the influence of a psychosis as such, Rob. I am interested in those who did so and who still - in spite of being in a parallel universe - took great care not to be seen, not to leave any clues, not to make a sound or allow their victims to do so.
For somebody suffering from a psychosis, these things are left uncared about - take another look at Chase, for example, and you will see exactly what I mean.

The more rationally these killers act, the further away we need to move them from being psychotics. It really is that easy. The ones who silently seek out a victim, who silence that victim and kills him or her, who takes care not to get bloodied and then sneaks away stealthily, bringing every piece of damning evidence with him, is NOT a psychotic. He is a planning killer and should be treated and convicted as one.

The more interesting bit in your post is the one about how psychotics may engage in organ-removing, cannibalism etcetera. That is very true. However, there are many examples of non-psychotic, psychopathic killers that have done this precise thing too.

It is not an uninteresting point nevertheless. I often find myself wondering about that particular detail with the Ripper and the underlying reasons for it.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Jeff Leahy]

Odd that there seems to be no evidence of this in his daily record while incarcerated. Perhaps it was a very brief interlude. After all, his admission paper stated that his illness started when he was 25. Quite a while after MJK, it seems.

Hi Amanda

As I said Aarons medical records don't really tell us much at all. If he was masturbating its unlikely it would have been reported. And from advice I've been given schizophrenia stops sex drive it doesn't increase it, so he probably stopped as his condition worsened.

But I think we just have to say we don't know. As with so many things its frustrating but all we have I'm afraid.

What little we do know suggests Aaron did masturbate before being admitted. Its level can be guessed at. It would seem to be unusual but as with most things schizophrenic, not impossible.

Sorry if that does not add much

Yours Jeff

[robhouse]

The more interesting bit in your post is the one about how psychotics may engage in organ-removing, cannibalism etcetera. That is very true. However, there are many examples of non-psychotic, psychopathic killers that have done this precise thing too.

I do not deny that what you said is true. But I am interested in looking at the likelihood of committing these acts for schizophrenic serial killers, versus in non-schizophrenic serial killers. I believe that the likelihood of cannibalism, evisceration, post-mortem mutilation and organ removal is much much higher in schizophrenic serial killers. Which is why the FBI, in the profile of Jack the Ripper, concluded that he was likely schizophrenic.

RH

[Amanda Sumner]

[QUOTE=Jeff Leahy;310991]Hi Amanda

As I said Aarons medical records don't really tell us much at all. If he was masturbating its unlikely it would have been reported. And from advice I've been given schizophrenia stops sex drive it doesn't increase it, so he probably stopped as his condition worsened.

But I think we just have to say we don't know. As with so many things its frustrating but all we have I'm afraid.

What little we do know suggests Aaron did masturbate before being admitted. Its level can be guessed at. It would seem to be unusual but as with most things schizophrenic, not impossible.

Sorry if that does not add much.

I agree that there is not much to go on, especially with what is available to the general public. However, I disagree that if Aaron had been into filthy habits it would not have been mentioned. The chair incident was mentioned. The point I am also trying to make is how ill was he in 1888? His admission stated he was 25 when he had his "first" attack. That would have been in 1890.
There is no evidence to support his candidacy for Jack the Ripper. None at all, in my opinion.

Amanda

Yours Jeff

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jeff,

Martin Fido's Begg-proof argument creates an academic impasse which neatly works to the advantage of adherents of the Blessed Sir Robert Anderson, Patron Saint of Marginalia.

I am not an ordinary Joe easily bamboozled by rarefied flimflam.

I have read Messrs Fido and Begg in all their many and various permutations, and their arguments in defence of SRA as a pillar of rectitude are convoluted, full of handy get-out clauses and generally three sizes too big for the simple matter in hand.

The basic contention that SRA was not a vainglorious liar or boaster is just plain risible. He was a fabulist. For someone so politically disliked, SRA sure did manage to live a rich fantasy life.

TLSOMOL is a must-read.

Regards,

Simon

[Fisherman]

I do not deny that what you said is true. But I am interested in looking at the likelihood of committing these acts for schizophrenic serial killers, versus in non-schizophrenic serial killers. I believe that the likelihood of cannibalism, evisceration, post-mortem mutilation and organ removal is much much higher in schizophrenic serial killers. Which is why the FBI, in the profile of Jack the Ripper, concluded that he was likely schizophrenic.

RH

Danny Rolling was not schizophrenic. But he cut off heads off anyway.
Arthur Shawcross was not shizophrenic. Still, he returned to victims to eviscerate them and consume their genitals.
Peter Sutcliffe was not scizophrenic. He nevertheless eviscerated his victims.

Of course, just like you say, these odd behaviours are there with the (very) odd psychotic and schizophrenic.

However, schizophrenics and psychotics are not very likely to turn killers, whereas psychopaths - like Rolling, Shawcross and Sutcliffe, for example - are more frequent beasts and much more common among the serial killer lists.

To me, Aaron Kosminski is an "in spite of"-bid. He COULD have been the Ripper - in spite of the disease he had, in spite of being a very small and slender man in 1915, in spite of being the kind of man others sent to walk their dogs for them, in spite of being a meek man in the asylums, in spite of ....

My own guess is that his family would have cared for him as best as they could, given his tragic illness. To my mind, given how they took him in and tried to keep him with them, I actually find it very unlikely that they would have let him roam the streets at night once he displayed any signs of madness.

Those signs may not have been very prevalent in 1888, though - so IN SPITE of them becoming clear two years after that, at the latest, he MAY have been allowed to nightwander and he MAY have been the killer. But I donīt think he was.

Thatīs the absolutely best case I can make for him.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Theagenes]

No part of this story is true and not likely to turn out true either.
Kosminski is not our man.
No evidence supports that he was the man that terrorised London in the Autumn of 1888.
Neither is there any evidence that he was a danger to others and certainly no evidence, either, that he indulged in solitary vices.
He was a harmless imbecile that suffered hallucinations.

A bit of homework on Edwards part, and he might have come up with a better candidate for his DNA testing.

So, no shawl / table runner recorded at the scene.
No Amos Simpson recorded at the scene.
No suggestions of serious violence, solitary vices or any hatred of women recorded in Kosminski's 28 years of incarceration.

I really don't know what is left to discuss.

Amanda

I keep seeing people still referring to this as a "table runner" and not just you Amanda. I would like to know what the evidence is that this is a table runner or something else other than a shawl or stole.

Edwards is being accused of playing loose with the facts and evidence, and rightfully so, but I see a lot of people in this thread doing that as well.

[Amanda Sumner]

I keep seeing people still referring to this as a "table runner" and not just you Amanda. I would like to know what the evidence is that this is a table runner or something else other than a shawl or stole.

Edwards is being accused of playing loose with the facts and evidence, and rightfully so, but I see a lot of people in this thread doing that as well.

It's too long and wide to be a shawl or a stole. It looks exactly like a table runner.
I think this subject was discussed 3,000 posts ago...:-)


Amanda