Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[lynn cates]

parsimonious chap

Hello Theagenes. Thanks.

I never said hoax. I said that was the simplest solution--in line with the Principle of Parsimony.

Cheers.
LC

[Jonathan H]

No, Jeff

To Jeff

Macnagthten in 1898 was happy for Major Griffiths to believe, and write, that 'Kosminski' was still alive--which he was.

In 1907, Mac was happy for Sims to imply that Kosminski was still alive--which he was.

Macnaghten can be shown to know more about this suspect that was accurate than Anderson and Swanson, and he firmly rejected him as being 'Jack the Ripper'.

[lynn cates]

allowance

Hello Krinoid.

"Someone should just once and for all test the "item" scientifically to get its date and confirm what it is and then we go from there and subject it for second opinions."

Agreed. Will Edwards allow that?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

shirt

Hello Jeff, Tom. Thanks.

I think Tom may have lain the bloody shirt business to rest.

Cheers.
LC

[mickreed]

hi everyone.
Ive been looking into Amos Simpson (on another thread here) and having a subscription to a well known genealogy site, I used it to look him up. Well he was living in St Pancras in 1881, and by 1891 he was living in Cheshunt, Herts with his wife and two children in both instances. He also appears, from the Natonal Archives Met Police Pensions index to have retired 1892/3. Which doesnt get us any closer to knowing where he was in 1888.

BUT

Henry Joseph Simpson and Ellen Simpson children of Amos Simpson and Jane were both baptised at Cheshunt Herts on 19th June 1885

He was listed as being born 7.5.1877 and she 21.2.1881. Its not cast iron proof Amos had moved to Cheshunt by 1885 but I think its a massive pointer.
Note here his occupation in 1891 is still listed as Metropolitan Police Officer, but did he switch areas to work closer to home?

This post is possibly extremely important. I've checked the details, and they are right.

I'm away from home at the moment, so cannot check, but I think I noticed, either in one of Paul Begg's or Phillip's Sugden's books on JTR, that Simpson moved to Cheshunt in 1892 or 1893. Apologies to said authors if it wasn't them, but I did read it in one of my books, only last week.

I'd already noted that he was actually at Cheshunt in 1891 with his family, and the fact that he had two children baptised there in 1885 does strongly suggest he was living there in 1885 and subsequently.

Cheshunt was 13 miles from Charing Cross and was at the extreme north of the Met Police area. It was a long way from Whitechapel.

So, while not totally ruling out the possibility that he could have been at Mitre Square for some reason, it does make it less likely. The common belief has been that he was assigned to Islington which, at its southernmost limits, was pretty close to Mitre Square.

If he really was stationed in Islington, it doesn't seem likely he'd have chosen to live in Cheshunt from 1885.

I know Edwards refers to him moving to Cheshunt 'later in his career', but this apparent evidence may suggest otherwise.

I can't check this from Australia. It probably needs looking at records that are not on line. Does anyone know what's going on here?

[mickreed]

Hello GUT. Thanks.

Must be serious to work for a government ministry. "Silly walks" if I recall?

Cheers.
LC

And also, like these forums, a great place for an argument - no it isn't! Yes it is! - but only if you pay.

[Robert]

Hi Mick

Yes, an important discovery by Panderoona. For what it's worth, there doesn't seem to be a record for Henry Simpson in the London Schools Admission Registers, which might suggest that Amos moved to Cheshunt early in the 1880s.

Re the Islington "transfer," read Monty post 1 :

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8348

[mickreed]

Hi Mick

Yes, an important discovery by Panderoona. For what it's worth, there doesn't seem to be a record for Henry Simpson in the London Schools Admission Registers, which might suggest that Amos moved to Cheshunt early in the 1880s.

Re the Islington "transfer," read Monty post 1 :

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8348

Thanks Robert. I'd missed the new thread. Yes, the absence of him (and of sister Ellen) in the school records is also suggestive, although of course, they are not absolutely complete.

[Jeff Leahy]

To Jeff

Macnagthten in 1898 was happy for Major Griffiths to believe, and write, that 'Kosminski' was still alive--which he was.

In 1907, Mac was happy for Sims to imply that Kosminski was still alive--which he was.

Macnaghten can be shown to know more about this suspect that was accurate than Anderson and Swanson, and he firmly rejected him as being 'Jack the Ripper'.

The problem is that MacNaughten favoured Druitt. Because of Private info

And without that private info we soon disappear up our own bottoms with wild conspiracy theories when the most simple solution is that Swanson made a simple mistake or was told Kosminski died, when in fact he'd been only transferred.

And the rest of the world simply moved on largely forgetting the Jack the Ripper murders, certainly not studying every minucia as we do today.

Yours Jeff

[John G]

As I've noted in earlier posts, PC Amos would surely have had to arrive at Mitre Square shortly after Eddowes body was discovered in order to lay claim to the shawl. it seems to me that unless, by a huge coincidence, he just happened to be visiting a friend or relative in Mitre Square, this is all but impossible.

Thus, let's speculate that he was on temporary secondment to the City Police. Well, quite apart from the fact that this would involve the unlikelihood of him transferring police forces, there is no evidence from official records of this actually happening.

Let us assume, then, that on the night of the murder he was patrolling his beat in Islington. How would he even be aware that a murder had taken place? I mean. it's not as if he would have been notified via his 19th C police issue radio or his GPS enabled mobile phone! I suppose, theoretically, he might have abandoned his beat and, to paraphrase Napoleon, marched to the sound of the whistles, but this doesn't seem very probable to me!

And, of course, there's the tricky problem of getting lost. East London at the time was a veritable warren of rookeries and passageways, which he no doubt would have to negotiate. In fact, I'm sure I once read that, at the time of MJK's murder, the police cordon was breached by about 50 locals via two passageways the local Whitechapel force didn't even no existed! Now if he had a GPS equipped mobile this problem could have been overcome, but that doesn't seem very likely, seeing as though this was the 19thC!

Exactly the same logic applies if we assume he was on temporary assignment to Whitechapel, for which there is no evidence. In fact to emphasize the point, is there any evidence that any Whitechapel officer was present at Mitre Square, or involved in the subsequent investigation?

Nonetheless, in the interest of thoroughness I am investigating the remote possibility that the Islington force were trialing a prototype helicopter on the night of Eddowes' murder. If so, there is clearly the remote possibility that PC Amos was collected by said helicopter and then subsequently parachuted into Mitre Square to aid the investigation. Unfortunately, as of yet, my research has failed to provide any conclusive results but I promise to keep the Board updated of any progress!

[Fisherman]

Hi Jeff,

I think it's worth pointing out that stranger homicides by individuals suffering from psychotic illness, such as schizophrenia, are incredibly rare and the victims are mainly adult men.

A Danish meta study concluded that there was an incidence rate of stranger homicide by individuals suffering from psychosis of 1 per 14.3 million people per year and, as noted, the victims were chiefly adult males (Nielssen et al, 2011). This is the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...0/#!po=84.3750

And a British study found that of 85 perpetrators of homicide with schizophrenia, over a 3 year period, only 12 killed a stranger. In contrast, of 560 perpetrators with a history of drug or alcohol misuse, 124 killed a stranger (Shaw, Amos, Appleby, 2004). Here is the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...?report=reader

Thanks for this, John G - it cannot be emphasized enough!

The best,
Fisherman

[mickreed]

Nonetheless, in the interest of thoroughness I am investigating the remote possibility that the Islington force were trialing a prototype helicopter on the night of Eddowes' murder.!

With initiative like that my son, you won't be a cadet for long. I think your suggestion is as likely as several others I've seen here.

[mickreed]

With initiative like that my son, you won't be a cadet for long. I think your suggestion is as likely as several others I've seen here.

In fact John G, you might have something in common with this bloke when it comes to finding out how the police really operate.

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2011/09/its-more-likely-that-i-was-doing-911kmh.html

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff, Tom. Thanks.

I think Tom may have lain the bloody shirt business to rest.

Cheers.
LC

Ok I get what you are getting at.. I currently have a number of books to catch up on. And this subject is revatent to my current equities, so thanks for the tip off Lynn.
Actually I have quoted Tom on several occasions and addressed Don Rumblow at one of the Ripper conferences about the supposed different knife used on Stride, sighting his work, I doubt if I could remember it now though…Dooh

Yours Jeff

[John G]

With initiative like that my son, you won't be a cadet for long. I think your suggestion is as likely as several others I've seen here.

Yes, I like to be thorough! However, when I try to imagine PC Amos parachuting into Mitre Square it does seem a little unlikely, even to me! Nonetheless, as Ripperologists we have a duty to investigate all possibilities however implausible!