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  • Originally posted by dropzone View Post
    Would you be so kind as to provide some citations to support that? All I've found says no, there was no evidence of strangulation, though Chapman may have been partially smothered.

    They were describing a corpse of a woman whose death was caused by loss of blood. No evidence of her fainting immediately pre-mortem would exist after her death, however she died.

    But what did you base your postulation on besides a killer in a completely different case? And if he had such an emotional attachment to this cloth, his “security blanket,” why was Eddowes the only victim whose DNA was found on it?

    Actually, you did, in the very statement you responded to: But it was backed with a different cloth, I assume linen. Two feet of that would roll up into a fairly substantial rope, unsuitable for casual garroting. The ends would then unfurl, and with them flapping in the breeze it would make the strangulation a ridiculous spectacle. Then Jack would have to shake it out so he could fold it and put it in his pocket,which he didn't have time for. But it's irrelevant, since none, repeat NONE, of the victims showed signs of having been strangled. I don't know why you are defending this hill so vigorously.

    That was simply the first time someone with that surname was mentioned as a suspect. Dude, my degree is in Archaeology. By comparison, with Jack the Ripper you have a luxurious amount of data. But what I also know is that you don't go off half-cocked with too little information and fill in the blanks with unfounded speculation. The technical term for that is “pulling it out of your arse,” and I see too much of that by a lot of people here.

    Thank you. Good luck with yours, too.

    I know you weren't addressing me, but I've never been able to finish a JtR book because the ones I've seen were too sensationalist and amateurish, with gushing prose and enough information to fill a magazine article, stretched to fill a book. This one seems to be more of the same..
    Dear DROPZONE: Would you be so kind as to provide some citations to support that? All I've found says no, there was no evidence of strangulation, though Chapman may have been partially smothered.?

    What I have postulated is that the victims were silenced before having their throats cut and the method differs in each case which goes against the normal run of thinking. I have various reasons for believing this however I would imagine you are following the report by Dr Bond where he repudiates the victims were strangled. I’m not saying all the victims were strangled I’m saying various methods of asphyxiation were used so the killer could get his victim in a position to cut their throat. This is consistent with Bond who says and I quote “In all cases the women were laying down when murdered”

    Strangulation is not always readily apparent; sometimes, according to Dr. Michael Baden, former Chief Medical Examiner for the state of New York, the only way to determine death due to strangulation is by dissecting the structures of the neck. Such an examination can determine if there are petechiae on the surfaces of the neck organs and if the tiny hyoid bone has been broken, which is almost always a sure sign that strangulation of some kind has taken place. This is not to say that every strangulation victim's hyoid bone is broken; in younger victims (i.e., below age 40), the bones are less brittle and so are less likely to break under strain. This is particularly true in cases of so-called "soft strangulation," which occurred in the murders committed by serial killer Arthur Shawcross, and leaves virtually no telltale marks. Furthermore, and with no disrespect to the police surgeons of the time, but they were not trained forensic pathologists. Given the kind of minute attention to detail as is frequently necessary in strangulation cases, it is eminently possible that such evidence, if it existed, was simply overlooked. Even Dr. Baden, who has hundreds (if not more) autpsies to his credit, has stated that "In general, the most difficult cause of death to determine -- from a medical examiner's point of view -- are deaths from strangulation or suffocation."

    Method of Attack: Strangulation.
    As a killer's modus operandi can alter, another avenue of evaluating Tabram's relation to these crimes is whether strangulation occurred. For strong evidence supports the Ripper strangled his victims, at some point, and then subsequently stabbed them afterwards. In the case of Tabram, Dr. Killeen seems to suggest otherwise. He testified at inquest that he believed all wounds were made while Tabram was alive and she then bled to death. Unfortunately, past this account, we have very little evidence, and nothing to tell us whether the primary indicator of strangulation was even checked - the fracture of the hyoid bone below the jaw. See Brian Innes, Bodies of Evidence (Reader's Digest 2000) at 96. The Illustrated Police News, 18 August 1888, however, did report that Tabram had received severe injuries to the head, the result of "being throttled while held down, and the face and head so swollen and distorted in consequence that her real features are not discernible." Along these same lines, we know as well that Tabram was found on her back, her hands clenched in a repose suggesting strangulation. See Sugden at 362. We likewise have the mortuary photograph, but given its black and white rendering, any inferences drawn from it are accordingly guesswork. That said, the photo does indicate swelling about Tabram's face, an obvious sign of asphyxia, due to raised pressure in the veins. See Innes at 94. It may as well show bruising, which would substantiate the Illustrated Police News report, but again, we have reached the culmination of the photo's usefulness.
    Respecting Nichols, strong evidence supports asphyxia occurred. For bruises and abrasions along the jaw indicate, especially when circular in appearance, denote asphyxia. See Innes at page 96. Dr. Llewellyn testified at inquest, as reported in the Daily Telegraph, Monday, 3 September, 1888:

    On the right side of the face there is a bruise running along the lower part of the jaw. It might have been caused by a blow with the fist or pressure by the thumb. On the left side of the face there was a circular bruise, which also might have been done by the pressure of the fingers.

    The evidence concerning Chapman is clear as well. Dr. Phillips testified at inquest, as reported in the Daily Telegraph, Friday, 14 September, 1888:

    The face was swollen and turned on the right side, and the tongue protruded between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips; it was much swollen.

    As read before, Phillips likewise believed the wounds were inflicted subsequent death. Curiously, when seen side by side, Tabram and Chapman's mortuary photos look nearly identical, although this is hardly the medical evidence we would like to confirm Tabram was in fact asphyxiated.
    In the case of Eddowes, the throat was horribly damaged, and the face severely mutilated. To wit, Dr. Brown testified at inquest, as reported in the Daily Telegraph, Friday, 5 October, 1888, that haemorrhage from the throat was the cause of her death. However, it is possible Eddowes was subdued by asphyxia, and its effects were obscured by the many brutal injuries to the throat. Consider that the large muscle on her throat was divided through on the left side, and those vessels completely severed. The right vessels were just opened, but the carotid artery was exposed. The larynx was severed below the vocal chord, and the jugular vein opened an inch and a half. See Begg, Fido, and Skinner at 39. Even washed, this area, where the primary traces of asphyxia are found, would be useless, as they were absolutely obliterated. But Eddowes hands were clenched, in a manner similar to Tabram, which may suggest strangulation, but is certainly not conclusive.
    Seen collectively, there is ample evidence to suggest Nichols and Chapman were subdued by strangulation. Despite her clenched hands, it is generally impossible to tell from the condition of Eddowes whether this is true in her case. Likewise, it is impossible to say anything except Tabram bore the features of a strangulation victim. (Quentin Pitman)


    In support of this theory I’ll supply two pieces taken from Casebook but I don’t want to discuss further what is leading off topic. What I was speculating was why Aaron might be carrying a table runner as Dr Fyaz Ismail says the clothe is from St Petersburg. It seems to me unlikely Eddows would have afforded it, and if Aaron had it he had it for a reason.

    I then speculated that Harold Jones is known to have had a fetish related to ladies handcerchiefs. This is ripperology not archeology and comparison to offer known serial killer cases is sometimes the only way we can try and understand the motives and behavior of Jack the Ripper.

    With regards to when Aaron Kosminski became a police suspect I was fairly clear in my response that we don’t know. The reason I give for this is almost none of the police files known to have existed currently survive. I’m hoping you will do me the courtesy of believing I do know all the arguments relating to when how and who Aaron Kosnminski became a suspect given that I made a detailed documentary on the subject? If you don't like to read perhaps you might like to purchase a copy on amazon, although I'm pleased to say it has recently been sold to american television.

    Perhaps you would do well to listen to Paul Beggs wise words and actually read one of his books instead of spending your life in a hole with a tooth brush. You never know you might actually learn something?

    Yours Jeff
    Last edited by Jeff Leahy; 09-14-2014, 01:12 AM. Reason: spelling check

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Jonathan H View Post
      As I wrote.

      This is the only way the "Kosminski" theory can be upheld: by flatly ignoring primary sources, not secondary ones, that contradict it.
      Well said Jonathan.

      And imo- in doing so the bandwagon rolls on and on and on, allowing space for more invention of history.

      best wishes

      Phil
      Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


      Justice for the 96 = achieved
      Accountability? ....

      Comment


      • Originally posted by christoper View Post
        with a shaky provenance, if we were trying AK in a court of law--his defense attorney could most likely get it suppressed so that the jury would not know about it.

        HOWEVER--just because it would be inadmissible in a court of law--that would not scientifically invalidate it.
        In today's world this would never get to the stage where anyone was charged let alone taken to court

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
          Hello Mick,

          IMO Mr Edwards does not present himself as a pedantic historian throughout this. Because there are way way too many holes in this whole sorry saga left unfilled by factual proof.

          best regards

          Phil
          G'day Phil. How's it going?

          From what I can gather Edwards doesn't present as a historian of any kind, except possibly, a lousy one. I mean, no citations, for Christ's sake.

          It would be a huge irony if, in the fullness of time, such an apparent dingbat was found to be on the money.
          Mick Reed

          Whatever happened to scepticism?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by PaulB View Post
            All explained. And I do not and never have believed Kosminski was Jack the Ripper. But I think it has been established that you have not read Russell Edwards' book, or very many others. In fact your research appears to be restricted largely to the internet. I. Just don't appreciate people like you who condemn a book without reading it.
            I am not condemning the book I am questioning the published results from the book, and the inferences being drawn by many from those results

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Theagenes View Post
              If you mean does the fact the DNA is purported to be from one of the more realistic suspects make it more plausible then of course it does.

              But personally I have no interest at all in what Edwards claims. I am interested in what two credentialed DNA experts have to say about the results of their research. That doesn't mean I accept it uncritically at all, but certainly I'm going to listen to what they have to say. So far it's sounding very promising, but we'll see. And I'm willing to provisionally give them the benefit of the doubt until they publish have a bit of fun speculating on the ramifications of what they've said (with the liberal use of caveats). Why not?

              And as for me personally, like many of you I never really considered Kosminski a serious suspect. The picture that has been painted of him as a drooling, gutter-dining masturbater is a hard one to shake. Honestly that's why I had never read Rob's book until this week. These results, preliminary as they may be, have certainly been enough for me to at least reassess him as a candidate. But it would have been the same for me had the DNA been purported to be Tumblety, or Druitt, or Chapman, or any of the other standard suspects. I never really had a favorite (maybe leaned toward Tumblety a little) and always thought it was most likely some unknown East Ender.
              Another question which hasn't been addressed or perhaps even considered is the level of expertise of these experts. There are experts and experts I wonder what categories they fall into.

              I am not wanting to cast dispertions against these two and I am sure what they did, they did professionally and to the best of their ability. But their results and methods need to be scrutinized by leading experts in both fields who may confirm their results of negate them.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                Wickerman:

                Hi Christer.

                Have you ever heard of a punter giving a gift to his favorite hooker?


                No, I have not - but I find it very easy to imagine nevertheless.

                Did our simple-minded Kozminski ever associate with prostitutes, and did he have a favorite, and did he give her a shawl?

                If you are after my own - specifically unsubstantiable - sentiments, I´d say that I don´t think that Aaron Kosminski associated with prostitutes. That´s not to say he couldn´t have, it´s just my hunch.

                If I am wrong, and if he did associate with and use prostitutes, then I thínk he may well have fallen in love with one of them and favoured her specifically.

                So if Kozminski's favorite hooker gets murdered, why should this shawl(?) implicate Kozminski?

                That is a good question - you normally don´t pick favourites in order to kill them afterwards.

                DNA from both of them could be on this shawl and that fact does not prove Kozminski killed her. It is merely an indication they knew each other.

                Actually, no. It is an indication that they MAY have known each other. I have set off DNA on millions of objects, and myriads of other people have also set off THEIR genetical markers on the same objects. I will not know more than a fraction of them.
                Overall, I agree, of course - the only thing we can conclude if the DNA comes through is that Eddowes and Kosminski or some close relative/s have - at some stage (or more likely stages) - come in contact with the shawl.

                Personally, I favour waiting for Dr Louhelainen's academic report, should it ever see the light of day. Picking up on snippets of information here and there only serves to fuel speculation.


                Wise enough. But can you really see this discussion taking a three-year hiatus, or something like that?
                I don´t mind looking at the surrounding evidence as we wait. I would, for example, like an explanation to why the shawl, and nothing else, was spattered with blood.



                I am sceptical; very sceptical, and I don´t mind letting that show - but I am too old to exclude anything at all.

                All the best,
                Fisherman
                Hi Fisherman

                You raise a good point. What if the shawl were a present?

                Don't we have evidence of presents at other murders…"see what a jolly new bonnet I have" and of course the mythical grapes..

                Yeah its an old speculation but these woman seemed relaxed in the enicial company of the killer. Harold Jones also new and charmed his victims

                Yours jeff

                Comment


                • Originally posted by mickreed View Post
                  G'day Phil. How's it going?

                  From what I can gather Edwards doesn't present as a historian of any kind, except possibly, a lousy one. I mean, no citations, for Christ's sake.

                  It would be a huge irony if, in the fullness of time, such an apparent dingbat was found to be on the money.
                  I can see Phil Carter choaking on his cornflakes now

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by mickreed View Post
                    G'day Phil. How's it going?

                    From what I can gather Edwards doesn't present as a historian of any kind, except possibly, a lousy one. I mean, no citations, for Christ's sake.

                    It would be a huge irony if, in the fullness of time, such an apparent dingbat was found to be on the money.
                    Hello Mick.

                    All is well here thanks and I hope the same for you?

                    What worries me is the lack of checking and double checking throughout. Mr Edwards seems imo to have just jumped in feet first all theory-blazing.

                    Dr Jari has shown a card from his own hand too in saying that -basically- he didnt expect all this publicity and reaction.

                    That surprises me. The CLAIMED discovery of Jack the Ripper WITH CERTAINTY thanks to his DNA tests is akin to discovering that Finlands greatest cross-country skiers during the last 20years have been using illegal performance enhancing methods for many years! (true) and nobody would react!


                    best wishes

                    Phil
                    Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                    Justice for the 96 = achieved
                    Accountability? ....

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Theagenes View Post
                      If the claims made by Edwards are substantiated by Louhelainen (and that is a very key "if"), then I would say the connection between Eddowes and the shawl is very solid based on the rare mtDNA. This is a bloody artifact that was advertised as being from the Eddowes murder in 1990, well before DNA fingerprinting was in use and the mtDNA recovered from matches here incredibly closely.

                      The connection with Kosminski is less solid at this point. So far all we really have is a mtDNA match. We don't know how close that match is. Is it a common haplotype? I would think if it had a rare variation like Eddowes we would have heard about it. It appears that it either the mtDNA or the Y-DNA may be T1a1, which may or may not be indicative of an Ashkenazi Jewish background depending on which one it is. But it sounds like Edwards may have garbled this part so we don't know.

                      Ironically, the presence of nDNA in the semen means that further tests could probably definitively ID Kosminski -- or definitely exclude him. But the publisher and/or Edwards didn't want to wait for that. Almost makes you wonder if they just didn't want to roll the dice.

                      So it is very possible that there could be mixed results here even if we accept as a given everything that has been stated thus far. It could very well be that the shawl is indeed from the murder of Eddowes as has always been claimed, but the semen donor is not Kosminski but some other unknown East End Polish Jew that has the same haplotype as he does.

                      A lot of people here are treating these results as if they are just one big monolithic DNA experiment, but actually they are two very separate tests (the blood and the semen) with with different results and implications.
                      And isn't it such a big coincidence that the shawl just happens to contain the semen of Kosminski along with the blood of Eddowes now I will start to beleive in fairies

                      I also wonder which came first the scientists examination of the shawl where he found the samples. Or Edwards obtaining the control samples and then he provided the shawl for examination ?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                        I also wonder which came first the scientists examination of the shawl where he found the samples. Or Edwards obtaining the control samples and then he provided the shawl for examination ?
                        In both cases, according to the book, the material was extracted from the "shawl" by Dr Louhelainen before contact was made with the family members by Russell Edwards.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Jeff Leahy View Post
                          I can see Phil Carter choaking on his cornflakes now
                          No but I might skate around the yard with the "How Aaron Kosminski was dangerous as JTR then doped down chemically in an asylum and other fables" double dvd I just stepped on.

                          I use the "Martin Fido says Anderson is Innocent" T-shirt I was sent to wipe away grime from the guttering too.

                          Bacon, lettuce and tomato sandwiches on Sundays btw.
                          Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                          Justice for the 96 = achieved
                          Accountability? ....

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Chris View Post
                            In both cases, according to the book, the material was extracted from the "shawl" by Dr Louhelainen before contact was made with the family members by Russell Edwards.
                            So now another door opens !

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                              I am not condemning the book I am questioning the published results from the book, and the inferences being drawn by many from those results
                              No you are not. You are condemning the book.

                              Mr Edwards case is, "total fantasy".

                              That's condemnatory. It's what you told the Sunday Star

                              The “profiles obtained could match any one of 400,000 people in 1888,” you said, making the same nonsense claim you repeatedly made here.

                              That's pretty condemnatory.

                              And you haven't even read the book or any part of it.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
                                Another question which hasn't been addressed or perhaps even considered is the level of expertise of these experts. There are experts and experts I wonder what categories they fall into.

                                I am not wanting to cast dispertions against these two and I am sure what they did, they did professionally and to the best of their ability. But their results and methods need to be scrutinized by leading experts in both fields who may confirm their results of negate them.
                                It's called 'peer review' and is what some people have been referring to since day one. It is hoped that Dr. L. will write a paper for one of the academic journals.

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