Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Tecs]

I haven't even seen this book, and I'm unlikely to do so, but would you like me to make an educated (or informed) guess where he is getting his information from?

Thin air? The ether? His arse?

take your pick.

regards

[Stewart P Evans]

Didn't know...

The moment I read excerpts from Naming JtR concerning the shawl being sold at auction, and saw there descriptions of Stewart Evans that made Stewart sound terse, cynical, coldly analytical, uncompromising and forthright, I knew this book and this author could not be trusted.
Everyone here knows that Stewart is a cuddly warm hug of a man, like a big loveable human blankie.
Even though his name is an anagram of SATANS WET PERV

I didn't know that my name appeared in the book. Better check that out. Not sure about your comments tho'.

[pinkmoon]

At the moment, I can't figure out a way to get DNA from a woman killed in 1888 and a man who died in 1919.

How could this DNA have been planted?

Thx,

curious

It is not a perfect match that gives a billion to one chance against its produced a weaker strain which they claim is because the d.n.a is so old which gives a 400,000 to one chance against but and this is the big but for me d.n.a has been taken from living direct descendants at some stage so could that have Been tamperd with and added to the shawl?

[spyglass]

Spyglass,

There was a guy on the boards some years ago who claimed to have solved the case. He was very cryptic about his evidence, but hinted that it had something to do with a crucifix owned by Mary Kelly. He received the expected 'warm' welcome and generated considerable debate.

When things got a bit too hot to handle, he announced that it was all a hoax. He had actually been carrying out some kind of social experiment to see what the response of the Ripperological community would be to the solution of the case.

Perhaps we should consider this in the same way and look at how the community has reacted to the claim of a solution to the mystery we all love so much.

MrB

I guess my point is that the general public wont care one way or the other, the same with the press. As for all of us intrested in the case, It seems apart from having a lively debate ( " I know more about DNA then you" ) we will all still carry on reading and researching because we know its utter rubbish.

[Stewart P Evans]

Interesting

It is not a perfect match that gives a billion to one chance against its produced a weaker strain which they claim is because the d.n.a is so old which gives a 400,000 to one chance against but and this is the big but for me d.n.a has been taken from living direct descendants at some stage so could that have Been tamperd with and added to the shawl?

Interesting comments - but watch out for the apologists and barrack room lawyers re- libel.

[pinkmoon]

Interesting comments - but watch out for the apologists and barrack room lawyers re- libel.

I'm hoping the police will intervene soon.

[Stewart P Evans]

Fame and recognition

The moment I read excerpts from Naming JtR concerning the shawl being sold at auction, and saw there descriptions of Stewart Evans that made Stewart sound terse, cynical, coldly analytical, uncompromising and forthright, I knew this book and this author could not be trusted.
...

Fame and recognition at last! I appear in the book that 'knocked the Ripper case on the head' and ended the mystery. I give favourable rates for interviews if any TV representatives are reading this.

[Boggles]

dont worry they too busy rounding up Asian gangs in rotherham to worry about this cold case

[Stewart P Evans]

Civil Law

I'm hoping the police will intervene soon.

Amos Simpson is on his way. Actually the police don't deal with libel, it comes under civil law.

[Tecs]

Exactly, Bridewell. I don't for a second believe Simpson came into possession of the shawl/table runner in that way. Never.

Then, of course, Mr. Evans met members of his family and said they were nice people.

It's been great fun reading through this thread and seeing everyone's comments and reactions.

My own first thought was no way the “shawl” belonged to Eddowes as it was not listed in the inventory. However, as I have read through all the discussion, my mind has arrived at a possible way this can all be right, while so much is wrong.

Let's look at what we think we know:
1. The material (shawl or table runner) has been dated to 1902-1904.
2. Sgt. Amos Simpson worked for the Metropolitan and not the City police force, so there is no reason (and no record) for him to have been at the Eddowes crime scene.
3. The scientist who performed the tests is reputable.
4. DNA research is rapidly changing.
5. Simpson told family A. It belonged to Jack the Ripper (NOT one of the victims, apparently); B. He was given permission to take it home.
6. The Simpson family who had possession of the “shawl” are good people and believe the story that it belonged to Jack the Ripper, according to Stewart Evans who had spoken to a great- or great-great-nephew.
7. Kosminski died in 1919.
8. "So at this earlier date, 1894 or early 1895, Anderson's 'definitely ascertained fact' was only 'a perfectly plausible theory.' as Stewart Evans stated would be exactly right.
9. His family committed Kosminski to Mile End Old Town Workhouse on July 12, 1890, for threatening his sister, and then committed in February 1891 to the lunatic asylum of Colney Hatch.
10. Macnaghten named him as one of three possibilities more likely than Cutbush in 1894 and called Kosminski “a strong suspect.”
11. April 13, 1894 -- Aaron Kosminski was transferred to Leavesden Asylum for Imbeciles, noted as 'Demented and Incoherent.'
12. However, by 1910 (AFTER THE DATE OF THE FABRIC IN THE TABLE RUNNER), Anderson was certain according to Blackwood’s Magazine, Part VI (March 1910): - "One did not need to be a Sherlock Holmes to discover that the criminal was a sexual maniac of a virulent type; that he was living in the immediate vicinity of the scenes of the murders; and that, if he was not living absolutely alone, his people knew of his guilt, and refused to give him up to justice. During my absence abroad the Police had made a house-to-house search for him, investigating the case of every man in the district whose circumstances were such that he could go and come and get rid of his blood-stains in secret. And the conclusion we came to was that he and his people were low-class Jews, for it is a remarkable fact that people of that class in the East End will not give up one of their number to Gentile justice.
13. In his book, also published in 1910, Anderson said: - "…In saying that he was a Polish Jew I am merely stating a definitely ascertained fact."
14. While Anderson did not name the suspect, Donald Swanson wrote in a private copy of Anderson's book “The suspect was Kosminski.”

Let's say all these things are correct.

Here's the speculation and conjecture - last chance to turn back.

So, how could DNA from both Kosminski and Eddowes have gotten on the table runner?

The 1902-04 runner was on a table in the home of one of Kosminski’s sisters, and, as was usual, a vase with flowers was placed on it.

Kosminski had already been committed but was home “on furlough” or over a holiday during a lucid time (Yes, cursory research indicates that some asylums and doctors did grant home visits).

Now, during that time at home, Kosminski went to his hidey-hole and brought out his beloved, dried-out trophies to play with on the table.

Kosminski was interrupted, and his family was aghast with what they saw. In the melee, the vase turned over and the trophies and table runner were soaked. (I'd like to see the material tested for Annie Chapman’s DNA.) How Kosminski’s DNA got on the material seems self-explanatory.

Now, it seems likely to me that Kosminski’s family may have suspected, perhaps having noted his absences or his bloody returns, but did not have proof and did not really want proof. Maybe, he simply waited until they were asleep before he wandered about.

To his family and those around him, he probably seemed harmless.

I suspect that him seeming so harmless is what made the victims unafraid of him. He was just that strange kid in the neighborhood they'd watched grow up.

They may even have taunted him or gotten money from him over the years. They knew him and believed they were safe with him.


Now, how did Amos Simpson get the runner?

After the discovery of Aaron Kosminski playing with body parts, his family was very conflicted. Did they go to the police and bring shame to the family? Aaron was already judged to be insane, there would be no repercussions to him (except to be permanently and forever locked away, without benefit of furloughs, but at this point, maybe his family would want this).

Instead of going to the authorities directly, they sent a family lawyer who worked a deal with officers who already feared riots if the Ripper was Jewish.

The proof of Kosminski’s guilt was to be given to the authorities with the agreement that the Ripper never be officially named. The authorities could rest, knowing the killer was “safely caged,” the Kosminski family would not be harmed and no riots would ensue.

Besides, it was not as though Kosminski could ever be brought to trial.

So, the lawyer got the agreement, and the table runner and its gruesome contents were given to the Met officers.

Simpson asked for the runner and was allowed to take it home as it wasn't evidence and it could never be used in a trial. Because the trophies had received a thorough soaking, DNA was embedded into the fabric of the table runner.

Perhaps Simpson himself said he was first on the scene and mentioned Eddowes because a kidney was one of the treasures. But he did not have to have said that for it to have been reported or remembered that way.

As someone has mentioned already with the “Chinese Whispers” game, which is likely known as “Gossip” in the southern United States, a statement is whispered into one person's ear and several people pass the information along, ear-to-ear, until, at the end, the statement is nothing like the original.

Minds also interpret what they are hearing. We started with a four-week deadline for brides and they instantly thought “one month.” Not really the same thing. I have written down quotes, then turned on the recorder and seen that mentally I have written down synonyms for the words the speaker actually used. Things get changed, innocently, but almost always.

I would personally think it likely Simpson mentioned Eddowes and the minds of his listeners thought he must have been at the crime scene in order to have possession of the runner when perhaps all he said was that it had belonged to Jack the Ripper. He must have been first on the scene in order to have gotten the table runner, right? So that became part of the family tradition.

Who knows how things really happened?

I do hope the owner of the shawl/table runner allows independent review, because possibilities do exist -- just outside the remembered story that has been handed down through generations. With new knowledge and tests for the “magic” of DNA, who knows what can be discovered that was out of reach a few years or even a few months ago?

My first reaction — no way. But I'm eager to see what develops.

Blimey!

If my wife ever finds lipstick all over my shirt with several spicy letters in the pocket, perfume smell all over my jacket, pair of knickers in my inside pocket and several texts and voicemails from various ladies on my phone, could I have your number for speed dial please..

regards,

[Stewart P Evans]

Lucky

Blimey!
If my wife ever finds lipstick all over my shirt with several spicey letters in the pocket, perfume smell all over my jacket, pair of knickers in my inside pocket and several texts and voicemails from various ladies on my phone, could I have your number for speed dial please..
regards,

You should be so lucky.

[Fisherman]

Actually the police don't deal with libel.

If old Amos actually said that he was given the shawl by the Met, I dunno about that.

Fisherman

[Henry Flower]

Fame and recognition at last! I appear in the book that 'knocked the Ripper case on the head' and ended the mystery. I give favourable rates for interviews if any TV representatives are reading this.

Stewart, you'll be presenting Crimewatch before you know it. Congratulations!

[Boggles]

have they actually bothered to check its real blood on this shawl/table cloth thingy???

[Stewart P Evans]

Actually

Stewart, you'll be presenting Crimewatch before you know it. Congratulations!

Actually I have been approached recently for a new TV appearance on a feature about the Ripper. I'll put a good word in for this new book while I'm at it.