Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[robhouse]

Before everyone gets carried away with this statement, the 'gentleman concerned' got his facts mixed up and mistakenly believed this was the case, which he has since recognised.

The shawl was actually displayed in a glass case at the Bournemouth conference of 2001, with no Eddowes descendants present. I was the organiser of this event and personally took the shawl from Andy and Sue Parlour, placing it in a glass cabinet for two hours and then it was returned.

What was displayed at Wolverhampton was a replica of Kate's clothing and possessions produced by Andy and Claudia Aliffe.

On a related note, I spoke with Andy Aliffe this morning who said he has never worked at the V&A and has never spoken to them about the shawl. The Edwardian dating comes from a quote by former Crime Museum Curator Alan McCormick, who told Russell Edwards that is what Sotheby's had told him from a cursory glance.

Reading Russell Edwards' book, the truth seems to be rather different.

Adam

Adam,
Please stop posting factual information on this thread. It is ruining the groupthink.

RH

[Poch]

It might well be made at the right time but to take this seriously we have to be able to place it at eddowes murder scene and we can't we will never be able to do that so this will run forever.

Again in the book, this is addressed. The police report doesn't place it there, but a press report on the murder scene does. I believe his answer for this is that it was there originally, hence the press report, but went walkabout, presumably to its new owner who took it home which is why the police report doesn't list it, as it would not have been there.

I'm not stating any of this to stand up for the book, I just think an awful lot of the debunking being posted actually is addressed in the book, whether conclusive or not, so it's worth mentioning.

[Bridewell]

eddie - I agree with Jason. Usually reliable?

The BBC is now staffed almost entirely by recent graduates obsessed with diversity quotas and climate change.

It hasn't been reliable, or even grown-up, for a long time.

End of rant.

And it hasn't been unbiased for a quarter of a century - to what should be its eternal shame.

[Debra A]

I'm not stating any of this to stand up for the book, I just think an awful lot of the debunking being posted actually is addressed in the book, whether conclusive or not, so it's worth mentioning.

Yes, I have found this to be the case too, Poch. There are explanations for all concerns being raised here. Personally the explanations are not always satisfactory for me but others may find them totally plausible without further evidence.

[MrBarnett]

Hello MrB,

As I said, I will wait on recieving a reply from my contact before I agree/disagree.


To be honest, it is going to be very hard to defend this mtDNA anyway.. because of all the different people who have had contact with it both before and after testing.

I am pretty sure the thing wasn't glove hadled by all and sundry from way back in the 1990's... and unless the blasted thing has been IN THE SAME HOUSE for 126 years, it has been physically moved (though unwashed!!!....) and I am sure as eggs are eggs it has been handled by very, very many people over the years.
Please note:-

If ONE Eddowes family member has touched it, breathed on it (when leaning over it) EVER.... then that is enough.

Re-testing the thing is a waste of time now. It is being handled without gloves.


best wishes


Phil

Phil,

Understood. The case clearly wouldn't stand up in a court of law. And whatever spurious scientific claims are made, it fails the plausibility test in respect of the acquisition by PC Amos.

I hope we don't spend too much time on this nonsense, but a little digging into Amos might be of interest. I see he was living in Cheshunt, Herts in 1891 and still listed on the census as a Met. PC . Presumably he was based in the leafy Northern suburbs of N division, about as far as any Met PC could get from mitre square.

Cheers ,

MrB

[pinkmoon]

Hi Pink.

Firstly please let me make it crystal clear that I don't believe in the shawl or that a copper took it home etc.

However, the idea of the ripper taking something with him to lie on more comfortably whilst performing his mutilations etc is not without merit. Sutcliffe sewed together a bizarre item made out of a jumper, padding and other parts in order that he could wear it on his bottom half meaning that he was comfortable whilst kneeling, masturbating over the bodies. He also made it with easy access to his parts so that he could get the job done quickly and efficiently, something which proves both premeditation and sexual elements. (See last post)

It's not impossible that the ripper, whoever he may be could have taken an item with him to kneel on and if unfolded, possibly catch any semen, not to avoid leaving DNA of course but to avoid any extra disgust if he was ever caught.

Probably not likely, but not impossible.

Regards

I havnt got a problem with something like this been at the murder scene but we cant go forward with this till we can place the shawl at the murder scene and we can't and we will never be able to do that.

[Poch]

Phil,

Understood. The case clearly wouldn't stand up in a court of law. And whatever spurious scientific claims are made, it fails the plausibility test in respect of the acquisition by PC Amos.

I hope we don't spend too much time on this nonsense, but a little digging into Amos might be of interest. I see he was living in Cheshunt, Herts in 1891 and still listed on the census as a Met. PC . Presumably he was based in the leafy Northern suburbs of N division, about as far as any Met PC could get from mitre square.

Cheers ,

MrB

Yes, he was based in N division. At the time of the murder he was on 'special duties', which meant there is a likelihood he would have been elsewhere. The books version goes that he was there either to help with manpower needs during the ripper murders, or because of Fenian terrorists if I remember correctly.

[lynn cates]

certain

Hello Penny. Thanks for adding that.

Are you certain about the sourcing for mDNA?

Cheers.
LC

[Penny_Dredfull]

Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

If I told you I have a pair of nickers Sharon Tate wore on the night she was killed by the Manson family, and I told you that a policeman on the scene nabbed them and took them home to his wife, and then I further informed you that the wife didn't want them (Imagine!) and these nickers have been passed down from person to person over the years (without washing!), and THEN I asserted that I had been able to extract DNA from them which proves that Manson himself was at the crime scene and took part in the murders...wouldn't you just laugh in my face?

[Penny_Dredfull]

Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

Lynn Cates- Yep, pretty sure about that. I checked several reputable online forensic science websites, including that of the FBI on the subject before posting that.

[Stewart P Evans]

Know more

Yes, he was based in N division. At the time of the murder he was on 'special duties', which meant there is a likelihood he would have been elsewhere. The books version goes that he was there either to help with manpower needs during the ripper murders, or because of Fenian terrorists if I remember correctly.

Obviously you know more than I do, as I didn't know that Simpson was on 'special duties' at the time of the murder.

[lynn cates]

target

Hello Phil. You must understand that the technology goes beyond that and allows the investigator to bypass irrelevant DNA (eg, PC Simpson, Mrs. Simpson, the clerk who sold, the Eddowes family) and home in on Aaron Kosminski and Kate.

Ain't science great? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Poch]

Obviously you know more than I do, as I didn't know that Simpson was on 'special duties' at the time of the murder.

Oh, no my apologies, I literally just pulled that from the book. It goes into the whole special duty thing for a few pages.

[Debra A]

Obviously you know more than I do, as I didn't know that Simpson was on 'special duties' at the time of the murder.

Poch is just quoting from the book, Stewart. That is what is claimed.

[pinkmoon]

I've just watched Mr Edwards on the BBC site and his body language dosnt inspire confidence he looked very shifty.