Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Observer]

Just to add. How accurately can an expert date the textile? A date of 1902-04 has been suggested. Is it possible to date such textiles as accurately

[sepiae]

sorta so beautiful

Poch - an admirable summary so far, thank you!

I intend to read it through the lens of your word, 'sorta'. In fact, let's re-write the publicity blurb using that word to qualify every claim:

Bringing together sorta ground-breaking forensic discoveries - including vital DNA evidence - and gripping historical detective work, Sorta Naming Jack the Ripper constructs the first sorta truly convincing case for sorta identifying the world's most notorious serial killer.

In 2007, businessman Russell Edwards bought a sorta shawl sorta believed to have been left beside the body of the fourth victim, Catherine Eddowes. He knew that, if genuine, the sorta shawl would be the only piece of crime scene evidence still in existence. It was the start of an extraordinary seven-year quest for Russell as he sorta sought to sorta authenticate the sorta shawl and learn its secrets. He had no idea that this journey would take him so far.

After undergoing sorta extensive forensic testing by one of the country's top sorta scientists, the sorta shawl was not only shown to be sorta genuine, and sorta stained with Catherine Eddowes' blood, but in a massive breakthrough the killer's DNA was also sorta discovered - DNA that would sorta allow Russell to finally put a name to Jack the Ripper . . .


About the Sorta Author

Russell Edwards is a sorta businessman and property developer who has long been fascinated by the East End of London and by the crimes of Jack the Ripper. He sorta lives in Hertfordshire.

Very Niccce, Henry Flower

[ghoulstonstreet]

So funny.

[Poch]

Poch - an admirable summary so far, thank you!

I intend to read it through the lens of your word, 'sorta'. In fact, let's re-write the publicity blurb using that word to qualify every claim:

Bringing together sorta ground-breaking forensic discoveries - including vital DNA evidence - and gripping historical detective work, Sorta Naming Jack the Ripper constructs the first sorta truly convincing case for sorta identifying the world's most notorious serial killer.

In 2007, businessman Russell Edwards bought a sorta shawl sorta believed to have been left beside the body of the fourth victim, Catherine Eddowes. He knew that, if genuine, the sorta shawl would be the only piece of crime scene evidence still in existence. It was the start of an extraordinary seven-year quest for Russell as he sorta sought to sorta authenticate the sorta shawl and learn its secrets. He had no idea that this journey would take him so far.

After undergoing sorta extensive forensic testing by one of the country's top sorta scientists, the sorta shawl was not only shown to be sorta genuine, and sorta stained with Catherine Eddowes' blood, but in a massive breakthrough the killer's DNA was also sorta discovered - DNA that would sorta allow Russell to finally put a name to Jack the Ripper . . .


About the Sorta Author

Russell Edwards is a sorta businessman and property developer who has long been fascinated by the East End of London and by the crimes of Jack the Ripper. He sorta lives in Hertfordshire.

Ha! That is actually pretty spot on to my take on it going in and as I'm reading it!

[ghoulstonstreet]

One thing is certain here in the u.k, the story is gathering moss and has been picked up by some other national newspapers , so expect it to grow over the next few days.

The question or questions that need answering are
1 Beyond reasonable doubt did this shawl belong to or was in the possession of Catherine eddowes

2 can the findings of the D.N.A be accepted by the scientific world as accurate as is claimed.

If so in my opinion then that is fact and case closed for me.

Regarding hiding of the shawl by the owner ,I would of done exactly the same if I was him.
This story and revalation is or could be the breakthrough to finally solve the case.
However if and only if the scientific world comfirm the findings.

The sceptics will point to the fact, there's a book I'm them there hills.

IF, IF, IF the tests are accurate and not a hoax the best we can say is that a Russian Jew and an Englishwoman both left DNA on the shawl, possibly years apart. Now, that's a whole lot of folks.

[TomTomKent]

I guess you have a point there.

Which is less help with DNA, but can be useful for the other thing...

[ghoulstonstreet]

Without Y DNA ( and we are assuming quite credibly that Aaron had no boychiks) isn't a "proven" mtDNA "match" just telling us that this individual came from an area where such mtDNA was widespread? In other words it's not individual-specific and never can be. Only the Y DNA can pinpoint, am I right?

[ghoulstonstreet]

Hello Wolfie.

"Perhaps, Kosminski and Eddowes had time to conduct business, using the shawl as a cover, or blanket or wipe to clean off, and then he brutally killed her."

And whilst this was going on, the knife was . . . well, where?

Cheers.
LC

Don't get me wrong. I am extremely dubious about this "discovery", but as far as where was the knife - people wore layers of wool, especially in a colder, damper climate such as London. I know the dude didn't DISROBE to perform his feat of nature. He could have had it in many places on his person.

[ghoulstonstreet]

Hello Jon.

"So we have a killer who brings this cloth to the murder, leaves it there and cuts another piece of cloth from her body to carry away the organs...."

Quite.

"Well, someone's insane to come up with that idea, not sure if it's the killer or the author..."

Insane? His gift shop will make a fortune.

Cheers.
LC

Somebody's "gift shop" is making a fortune right now.

[whitechaplewonder]

Perhaps so many "ripperologists" like ourselves are just a bit put out.Perhaps we don't want the show to end ? So many of us have invested,time,money and ultra-dedication to this case and we can't give it up.AK is such a strong suspect anyway and this DNA link should come as no suprise.We have not just found Gull's confession under the floorboards.

Kosminski lived locally,he fits the FBI age location profile,he was named by Swanson and as good as named by Anderson,look at the marginalia "the suspect had been identified at the Seaside Home where he had been sent by us with great difficulty in order to subject him to identification...he was sent to Stepney Workhouse and then to Colney Hatch.... - Kosminski was the suspect "
We tend to say that Swanson got this age of death bit slightly wrong etc,but the man was in the know and had access to files we will never see.I have found many Victorian census and population records to completely wrong,why do we all tend to say the police are wrong,the records are right with such assurance?
AK fits the "foreign looking/sounding" witness statements.He was identified by the best witness at the seaside home.The murders stopped when he was watched 24 hours a day.
If there is DNA linking him to the Mitre Square murder,I for one am not suprised.

[whitechaplewonder]

Are we "Rpperologists" just a bit put out ?

Perhaps so many "ripperologists" like ourselves are just a bit put out.Perhaps we don't want the show to end ? So many of us have invested,time,money and ultra-dedication to this case and we can't give it up.AK is such a strong suspect anyway and this DNA link should come as no suprise.We have not just found Gull's confession under the floorboards.

Kosminski lived locally,he fits the FBI age location profile,he was named by Swanson and as good as named by Anderson,look at the marginalia "the suspect had been identified at the Seaside Home where he had been sent by us with great difficulty in order to subject him to identification...he was sent to Stepney Workhouse and then to Colney Hatch.... - Kosminski was the suspect "
We tend to say that Swanson got the date, age of death slightly wrong etc,but the man was in the know and had access to files we will never see.

I have found some Victorian and Edwardian census and population records to completely wrong,particlarly on age of death and full name,this is because record keepers had to rely on family members for information.
I found a case where a family lied about their backgrounds and names to protect themselves from anti-Irish sentiments during the Fenian bombings of the time.So why do we all tend to say the police are wrong,the records are right with such assurance?

AK fits the "foreign looking/sounding" witness statements.He was identified by the best witness at the seaside home.The murders stopped when he was watched 24 hours a day.

If there is DNA linking him to the Mitre Square murder,I for one am not suprised.

[ghoulstonstreet]

I will put no credence in this biz at all unless the shawl owner allows three more independent tests. One lab chosen by casebook, one lab chosen by the London Times and the last chosen by the NY Times.

[Phil Carter]

mtDNA is passed down from mother to all her children. It's a DNA maternal marker. Meaning, I have my mother's mtDNA, but my children do not, they have their mother's mtDNA, and by a stroke of good luck we're not siblings! mtDNA can be used to trace back the maternal line. So, we can trace back to my mother, her mother, my mother's mother's mother, and so on. Go back a few generations, now, work forward. Think, my great grandmother and all her children. And also all her daughter's children. And also, all her daughter's daughter's children. All of those lines will have the same mtDNA. Common mtDNA matches just means that two people can trace their maternal lines back to a common woman. (So, it is possible that my wife and I do have the same mtDNA, but that would mean that somewhere, tracing back through our respective mothers, and following only the mothers, you end up at the same woman - no, it's not our grandmothers either! )

Meaning, while a mismatch can disprove a suspect, a match just keeps them in the running.

Similar tracing for the paternal line can be done by looking at the Y chromosome, as this past down father to son (however, unlike mtDNA, which can match sons to mothers and the maternal line, the y chromosomes cannot match daughters to fathers or her paternal line).

Now, that being said, I think it would be best to get a bit more information on this breakthrough. If it were shown to be genuine, then it certainly moves Kosminski to the top of the list - but it has to be shown to be genuine first.

Hello JeffHamm,

So, I am correct in saying that if, in any generation, (however many families are involved) only boys are produced for example, then mtDNA stops. Correct?

So the next question, is simple. How many female siblings did Aaron have, and how many of them had females, and how many of them had females, and so on?

One would hope that the mtDNA samples taken had a control group set up? And another line to confirm/deny the first?


best wishes

Phil

[ghoulstonstreet]

His gift shop will be doing business now...

Look what a jolly bonnet he has now.

[ghoulstonstreet]

Morning ladies and gents. Long time reader and first time poster. What an interesting past 24 hours it has been.

I think the whole story stands and falls with the strength of the DNA evidence. If the evidence is correct, it would merely prove that Kosminski was connected to Eddowes. Whether it proves a connection on the night of the murder is a different matter altogether.

Btw, if Eddowes' DNA is found on the garment, then it doesn't matter if it was in the police report or not. The DNA links Eddowes with the shawl.

Yes, you are right about the Eddowes DNA IF, If, If the tests have been done with accuracy. Needs to be confirmed with retests.