Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Pontius2000]

Its a known fact that Simpson was a Police officer in N Division at the time of the murders, a jurisdiction separated by another Division, G Division, from the City police.

That is a known fact.

Anything else is speculation, and flies in the face of the evidence presented to you.

And as you claimed Warren had authority in another district, it is clear that jurisdiction boundaries do need explaining to you.

Monty

It is also a known fact that additional officers were used at night during the murder spree. So do you have any proof that Simpson was only used in N division, and not elsewhere as one of these addition officers on night patrol? Because unless you have evidence that he was not, then suggesting he couldn't have been there is speculation on YOUR part.

[Poch]

OK, just for the sake of discussion, why do you guys think it's so far fetched that a police officer could have taken the shawl home on the way to the morgue? Considering two things:

1. There was no such thing as forensic evidence at the time, it was 100 years away, likely the clothing of a victim were a burden to the police more than anything.

2. The morality of the time was very different, for a start just look at Whitechapel itself, the bunkhouses etc. But more on point, consider the police, an organisation that booted Eddowes onto the street at 1am, during a period where murders were knowingly taking place, against women of her class. To use morality and professionalism of todays police is straight doesn't fit.

This isn't to say that I agree with the authors story, this is just how I reconciled it as I was reading it, suspending disbelief for the duration of the book if you will and I'd be interested in hearing more knowledgable peoples thoughts on this aspect.

[Monty]

I'm not saying they were "assisting" each other. I'm saying they would have crossed paths, been in contact with each other, etc. they wouldn't have necessarily been working on each other's cases, but they WOULD have been working toward the same end....looking for the same person. So they would not have been totally independent of each other either.

Murder A happens in the Met.
Murder B happens in the City.
Evidence from Murder B is taken into the jurisdiction of Murder A's location
Cops from both locations are running around looking for the same man.

The above is why I say there WOULD have been cops outside of their own jurisdiction chasing leads. That's why I say it's wrong to dismiss outright that Simpson COULD have been out of his jurisdiction because of this imaginary jurisdiction force field that people don't fully understand.

From N Division?

Extremely improbable.

The procedure is clear, and outlined here and on another thread. His rank needs to be addressed, and the duties with that rank.

Monty

[MrBarnett]

There is also another theory which is gaining momentum as we speak .

Pink,

Has nobody risen yet ?

MrB

[Poch]

I think we are aware of it, just not buying it.

The items were listed as they were removed at mortuary.

I disagree about the Ashes, Aussies don't do green tops.

Monty

The shawl was supposedly removed en-route to the mortuary The story goes: Press described it, police didnt. Press called it a skirt, this guy says they mis-identified it. This guys theory then asks, where did it go? Uses it to back his claim that the officer took it home at some point between murder scene and mortuary.

Though as people here have said, its not in the drawing of the scene either etc.

[Pontius2000]

I KNEW IT!!!! If this blasted shawl thing could not possibly get worse.... I refer you all to THE TIMES newspaper Monday.. which... in it's closing line, when referring to the Metropolitan Police said... and I quote..

"The Metropolitan Police said that it's "cold case" team would be informed of the claims."
unquote


So now we know. The Met Police cold case team are on the job. Excuse me whilst I chuckle into my screen.

Cold case? This case is positively bleedin' frozen!!!!!!

I am really looking forward to seeing the cold case unit looking into a case where tons of papers and even files are missing and appear stolen... by their previous colleagues!


New Tricks, anyone? :-)



best regards


Phil

I missed the punch line? As soon as I heard about this shawl story, I wondered if the police would get involved. There is no statute of limitations on murder in the UK correct? Even if it's a 126 year old murder case, it's still a murder case. And a notorious one at that. If someone comes along and says they have a piece of evidence with DNA evidence to solve an unsolved murder, I think the police SHOULD get involved.

[pinkmoon]

The shawl was supposedly removed en-route to the mortuary The story goes: Press described it, police didnt. Press called it a skirt, this guy says they mis-identified it. This guys theory then asks, where did it go? Uses it to back his claim that the officer took it home at some point between murder scene and mortuary.

Though as people here have said, its not in the drawing of the scene either etc.

Okay so old Amos gets hold of the shawl/table runner/yoyo/gourmet jelly beans or whatever you want to call it goes home gives it to his dear wife who then does what she wait for it washes it or does she wipe it or does she throw it away because it's coverd in blood and some strangers semen or does she divorce him in fact an experiment to all married men on her (and that includes me)next time you are late home from work bring a bloodstained semen stained piece of clothing home with you as a present for the wife and after she's stopped savagely hitting you with the rolling pin and calmed down and rang her mother see if she is gratefull

[pinkmoon]

Pink,

Has nobody risen yet ?

MrB

I think this new theory that is snowballing is so controversial no one will believe it I can't get my head around it shocked to say the least.

[Pontius2000]

I think this new theory that is snowballing is so controversial no one will believe it I can't get my head around it shocked to say the least.

Let's hear it?

[Monty]

The shawl was supposedly removed en-route to the mortuary The story goes: Press described it, police didnt. Press called it a skirt, this guy says they mis-identified it. This guys theory then asks, where did it go? Uses it to back his claim that the officer took it home at some point between murder scene and mortuary.

Though as people here have said, its not in the drawing of the scene either etc.

And where did the press get the list from?

Monty

[pinkmoon]

Let's hear it?

Well here we go hold on to your hat could it be that this shawl story is wait for it shock horror drum roll dramatic music not true Amos never took the shawl home .on a lighter note wasn't there an Amos who was the barman at the woolpack in the series emmerdale farm about 20 years ago that was when the series was about agriculture and not sex like it is now.

[pinkmoon]

OK, just for the sake of discussion, why do you guys think it's so far fetched that a police officer could have taken the shawl home on the way to the morgue? Considering two things:

1. There was no such thing as forensic evidence at the time, it was 100 years away, likely the clothing of a victim were a burden to the police more than anything.

2. The morality of the time was very different, for a start just look at Whitechapel itself, the bunkhouses etc. But more on point, consider the police, an organisation that booted Eddowes onto the street at 1am, during a period where murders were knowingly taking place, against women of her class. To use morality and professionalism of todays police is straight doesn't fit.

This isn't to say that I agree with the authors story, this is just how I reconciled it as I was reading it, suspending disbelief for the duration of the book if you will and I'd be interested in hearing more knowledgable peoples thoughts on this aspect.

What about the wife angle

[Poch]

And where did the press get the list from?

Monty

I mean, I'm just saying what the book says, but assumedly, it's the presses description of the crime scene.

"Unlike the police list, a press report in the East London Observer said: 'Her dress was made of green chintz, the pattern consisting of michaelmas daises'. This description was repeated by other periodicals and newspapers at the time."

[Garry Wroe]

OK, just for the sake of discussion, why do you guys think it's so far fetched that a police officer could have taken the shawl home on the way to the morgue?

The body was guarded by Watkins until other officers arrived and secured the scene. No-one was permitted to touch the body until the arrival of the medical men. The body was then 'escorted' to the mortuary where an inventory of the clothing was made whilst the mortuary keeper undressed the victim in the presence of Inspector Collard, Dr Brown and others. The shawl was neither recorded nor mentioned during the subsequent inquest hearings.

And that's before Amos is introduced into the equation.

On top of this, Kate's clothing was described as old, threadbare and filthy. If, as claimed, the 'shawl' has never been washed, its present condition is incompatible with that which might be expected of Kate's attire.

Other than that, Mr Edwards has a watertight case.

[Poch]

The body was guarded by Watkins until other officers arrived and secured the scene. No-one was permitted to touch the body until the arrival of the medical men. The body was then 'escorted' to the mortuary where an inventory of the clothing was made whilst the mortuary keeper undressed the victim in the presence of Inspector Collard, Dr Brown and others. The shawl was neither recorded nor mentioned during the subsequent inquest hearings.

And that's before Amos is introduced into the equation.

On top of this, Kate's clothing was described as old, threadbare and filthy. If, as claimed, the 'shawl' has never been washed, its present condition is incompatible with that which might be expected of Kate's attire.

Other than that, Mr Edwards has a watertight case.

Right and I would agree, but thats not before Amos is bought into the equation, Amos comes in en-route to the mortuary (supposedly) and furthermore, no one suggests the shawl belonged to Eddowes, it's assumed it belonged to JtR.

The fact that it belonged to JtR is one (of many!) questions that immediately sprang to mind as I read. Why did he carry it around for starters.