Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Stewart P Evans]

Police

Post 832 says the book has him on 'special duties' which may explain no uniform, location, and perhaps not being mentioned as being at the scene. Would he even have told the other officers who we was? On special duties, he may not want City police to know what his role actually was.

The Metropolitan Police would not be allowed to work in this fashion in the City area. It should also be remembered that the Metropolitan Police Orders, issued regularly, listed all officers working special duty or on other divisions. And we have all the Police Orders for this period, with no mention of Amos Simpson.

[Jeff Leahy]

I did say sorry Jeff - sorry. No, I don't know John Burrows.

Thats cool

Just discovered that John Burrows worked with Frank Herburt on the Perfumo case. They were paid to frame Steven Ward by the then Tory Government.

They bribed and blackmail several prostitutes to give false evidence at Wards trial..

THe following year the Hammersmith Nude murders started.

Herburt died leaving a mysterious £50,000 in his bank account and Burrows disappeared… To Australia?

Yours Jeff

[pinkmoon]

Damn! I bet you wish you could prove that!

I'd be rolling in it I would be able to afford a table runner then.

[Stewart P Evans]

Naff

But before all of this we have to be absolutely certain this is eddowes shawl taken from the murder science we will always keep coming back to this fact untill we can be sure the shawl is the real deal nothing else can be discussed hand on heart and a Druittist for nearly 40 years I would love for this shawl to be genuine but it has to be proved to me and I just can't see how it can be.

I am about to make myself even more popular with the 'shawl' apologists.

The whole 'shawl' story is totally naff and I cannot believe it has advanced this far. Still it gives bored Ripperologists plenty to get hot under the collar about, including, apparently, me!

[Prosector]

This would be a very strange table runner, in my opinion... one half blue printed silk, the other half red silk. Also... isn't the point of a table runner to protect the table from dings and scratches? Would this extremely thin piece of silk even make sense as a table runner?

RH

The descriptions that I have read talk about a piece of material 8 feet by 2 feet which would be compatible with a table runner. Your picture doesn't look anything like that size, more like 4 feet by 2 feet which, I agree, isn't much like a table runner. Can anyone confirm the actual dimensions? Also one would expect it to be symmetrical if it was a table runner and have the same colour at each end.
Prosector

[Amanda Sumner]

Can't believe this debate is still going on. There was no shawl at the scene. Amos Simpson was never there. The DNA evidence is general, there is no specific match to either Eddowes or Kosminski. There can't be because they are both dead.

No Amos Simpson
No Shawl
No DNA that connects directly to killer or victim.

Even if the shawl had belonged to Eddowes, which is highly unlikely, it was not at the crime scene.

Therefore the book is, at best, a work of fiction.

Amanda

[Stewart P Evans]

Table Runner

I'd be rolling in it I would be able to afford a table runner then.

You mean to hire someone to run up and down your table? Or do you mean something else?

[pinkmoon]

The Metropolitan Police would not be allowed to work in this fashion in the City area. It should also be remembered that the Metropolitan Police Orders, issued regularly, listed all officers working special duty or on other divisions. And we have all the Police Orders for this period, with no mention of Amos Simpson.

Even if we had him at the scene would he be allowed to take evidence like that home from a murder scene answer no.would he risk his job stealing it no.would he think his wife would like a blood and semen stained table cloth for a present .would see not wash it before it was used?

[Stewart P Evans]

Where?

[ATTACH]16207[/ATTACH]
Can't believe this debate is still going on. There was no shawl at the scene. Amos Simpson was never there. The DNA evidence is general, there is no specific match to either Eddowes or Kosminski. There can't be because they are both dead.
No Amos Simpson
No Shawl
No DNA that connects directly to killer or victim.
Even if the shawl had belonged to Eddowes, which is highly unlikely, it was not at the crime scene.
Therefore the book is, at best a work of fiction.
Amanda

I applaud everything you say Amanda, but where did you get that picture?

[Prosector]

Post 832 says the book has him on 'special duties' which may explain no uniform, location, and perhaps not being mentioned as being at the scene. Would he even have told the other officers who we was? On special duties, he may not want City police to know what his role actually was.

As far as I know he was a uniformed PC not a member of the CID. Is there any actual evidence that he was ever on 'special duties' ie official police records?

[curious]

Blimey!

If my wife ever finds lipstick all over my shirt with several spicy letters in the pocket, perfume smell all over my jacket, pair of knickers in my inside pocket and several texts and voicemails from various ladies on my phone, could I have your number for speed dial please..

regards,

Just PM me here and I'll put together something for you--for a slight fee of course

[Poch]

Hi Poch

Many thanks for this..and any info you can provide would be gratefully received.

As has been discussed previously, the general concencious when I looked at the Shawl back in 2002 was that it was Edwardian. A number of explanations have been given for this and it may be that I got the wrong origin for that story from Andy Aliffe..but Adan Wood seems to confirm the nucleus of that argument.

If that original dating is proved incorrect then obviously the whole story would be somewhat different and I'm happy to take on any new information or discoveries.. This story after all has proved sensational for business

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff, no worries I've got the book on me now, so can detail what they did a bit more. The thing with all this is I'm no expert so I'm 'blinded by science', as it were.

As the book goes: They established that the blue dye was likely hand painted, not screen printed, which initially led them to believe its age. They used fancy cameras to do abosption tests, which had ridiculous names like spectrophotometer (?!) which from what I understand, test to see which spectrums of light would absorb and which would reflect, in turn telling you the base colours of the dyes used. They found it to be in the indigo spectrum and that only one compound was used, meaning it couldn't have been screen printed (which came in around 1910). Nothing else could be told from this, so from here they went with the NMR (nuclear magnetic resonance) which apparently determines the actual structure of the compounds. These tests showed that it was very likely natural dyes, not synthetic which were created in 1856 and replaced natural dyes by 1870. From here they say that all this strongly suggests it was created before 1870 and is backed up by the people he contacted from sothebys. They also found that the compound resembled dyes used in Russia, apparently most common in st petersburg.

Thats about the long and the short of it. The book provides more detail and I think it's these parts of the book that I enjoyed the most. As I mentioned before, I don't believe the book to be watertight by any means but I found the science fascinating.

[Stewart P Evans]

Naffer

Even if we had him at the scene would he be allowed to take evidence like that home from a murder scene answer no.would he risk his job stealing it no.would he think his wife would like a blood and semen stained table cloth for a present .would see not wash it before it was used?

The whole thing gets naffer and naffer (new word). I can't believe that so many, from the media on down, get taken in.

[pinkmoon]

The whole thing gets naffer and naffer (new word). I can't believe that so many, from the media on down, get taken in.

The average man in the street knows nothing of this case and all the papers won't to do is sell papers.

[GUT]

The descriptions that I have read talk about a piece of material 8 feet by 2 feet which would be compatible with a table runner. Your picture doesn't look anything like that size, more like 4 feet by 2 feet which, I agree, isn't much like a table runner. Can anyone confirm the actual dimensions? Also one would expect it to be symmetrical if it was a table runner and have the same colour at each end.
Prosector

G'day Prosector

Some table runners have/had different coloured end, my grandmother had one, the blue end was placed at grandfather's end of the table the red end at hers.