Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[MrBarnett]

This would be a very strange table runner, in my opinion... one half blue printed silk, the other half red silk. Also... isn't the point of a table runner to protect the table from dings and scratches? Would this extremely thin piece of silk even make sense as a table runner?

RH

Hi Rob,

If you look closely, it appears the red/brown end has been cut. Most likely it was originally blue/red/blue.

MrB

[Patrick S]

Bridewell and Patrick S.- Exactly so. Very good points. There are fundamental problems here. Even if it is established without a doubt that Kosminski's semen is on the object- you have no way of knowing when and how it came to be there. And it is by no means proof of a murder- semen on a prostitute's clothing? How unusual is that?

Eh...yes and no. You have suspect. NOT a Lechmere or Sickert or William Gull type of suspect. But, a legitimate contemporary suspect. And you have a victim. You have that suspect's DNA (from semen) on an article - a table runner, a shawl, a page from a phone book, whatever - which also contains DNA from the victim (blood). The suspect and the victim are not associated in any way socially or professionally. They don't know one another, don't travel in the same circles, don't frequent the same nail salon.

I'd also say there is no way anyone could suggest the shawl belonged to Eddowes. She was far too poor to have anything so nice (and valuable) on her person. She sold her shoes the day before, if memory serves. The suggestion must be that the Ripper brought it and left it.

People have been convicted of murder with far less.

[robhouse]

Here are numerous Regency Shawls circa. early 19th century, some silk, many at least 8 ft long, or more.

http://www.pinterest.com/regencyregalia/regency-shawls/

Also, here is a post from another site regarding the shawl: http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...3#post74695843

See post #269.

"Look at Regency ones though and 8 foot by 2 foot is a perfectly standard size."

"Also, as you can see if you look at the Regency fashion-plates, this shawl is not hugely high-end or sophisticated. It is estimated that into the 20thC, the vast majority of the public, the vast majority of the time, wore secondhand - sometimes very old - clothing. This, in 1888, would not be high fashion and it could in fact possibly be cheap compared to a hand-knitted Shetland shawl of the same date."

RH

[Svensson]

I am happy to predict that there is no way on this earth that any scientific test, or anything else for that matter, will ever establish a valid and proven link between this piece of material and Eddowes and Kosminski.

Current technology or any future technology as well?

[Poch]

Poch- Yes, well that's the other problem. And it's a big one.There is no proof it belonged Eddowes or that it was worn by her on the night she was murdered. I can't even entertain the rest of the story attached to this "shawl" after that.

But neither are claimed by the author. The claim goes that it belonged to JtR, why he had it is anyones guess and is one of the problems of the guys theory in my opinion. I read the whole book in two sittings so I might be overlooking, but as far as I remember, he doesn't even properly try to explain this.

[John Wheat]

To establish anyone as Jack the Ripper you'd need a time machine and even then I doubt it would be Kosminski.

[lynn cates]

oops

Hello Debs. Thanks.

Touche! (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Here are numerous Regency Shawls circa. early 19th century, some silk, many at least 8 ft long, or more.

http://www.pinterest.com/regencyregalia/regency-shawls/

Also, here is a post from another site regarding the shawl: http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showt...3#post74695843

See post #269.

"Look at Regency ones though and 8 foot by 2 foot is a perfectly standard size."

"Also, as you can see if you look at the Regency fashion-plates, this shawl is not hugely high-end or sophisticated. It is estimated that into the 20thC, the vast majority of the public, the vast majority of the time, wore secondhand - sometimes very old - clothing. This, in 1888, would not be high fashion and it could in fact possibly be cheap compared to a hand-knitted Shetland shawl of the same date."

RH

It really does not matter if the thing was sewn up as a shawl or as a table runner, Rob - all we have to do is to conclude that it was cloth, cloth is warm and so it could have been USED as a shawl no matter what it was intended as.

Even if it was intended as a ceremonial tie, if there is DNA on it that can conclusively be proven to relate to the Eddowes and Kosminski bloodlines, then that is the point we should address. Provided the thing is old enough, at least.

Come to think of it, if it is NOT old enough to have been around in 1888, we may as well adress any Eddowes /Kosminski DNA on it just the same ...

The best,
Fisherman

[Penny_Dredfull]

Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

Hello Lynn- worse and worse. It's an old piece of cloth. Ok- how old? What is it? Shawl, table runner, Nana's curtains? Whose was it? Eddowes's, Kosminski's, Lillie Langtry's? Where did it come from? How can it be connected with Jack the Ripper? Unsubstantiated claims are worthless. It's a red herring IMHO.

[lynn cates]

dos

Hello Simon. Thanks.

Could be. But should not Aaron have had TWO "shawls"? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Stewart P Evans]

Cont'd

As I have already stated, the Parlours' book devotes pages 211-220 to the 'shawl' (Appendix One) and had been assisted in research by Keith Skinner.

David Melville Hayes provided full details of his family provenance of the 'shawl' and identified the originator as his great-great-uncle, Amos Simpson, the ex-Metropolitan Police officer. The tale told was that Simpson 'was a police constable who was the first person to find the body in Mitre Square. He had picked the shawl up that night and had kept it. Amos was on some kind of special duty, which he assumed to mean that he was in plain clothes on surveillance duty with two or three other officers.'

Here we can see a scenario being developed for placing Simpson not only out of his divisional area, but out of his force area. David's mother was interviewed by Keith and the writer, but at 95 she was very frail and 'struggled to make herself understood.'

The old lady recalled that her mother had said that Amos had told her to look after the shawl as it might be valuable one day. She kept it in a chest and never bothered with it again. She was told very little about it but it was something to do with the Ripper, and Eddowes. When asked if she knew how he got it she replied, "No one knows. He was on duty then. He must have taken it off her. It got into his hands anyway!"

[Penny_Dredfull]

Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

Poch- I see. Hmmmm, well that's just another claim that can't be substantiated or proven beyond a doubt. How convenient for the author. he doesn't properly explain any of it because he can't.

[curious]

Come to think of it, if it is NOT old enough to have been around in 1888, we may as well adress any Eddowes /Kosminski DNA on it just the same ...

The best,
Fisherman

Exactly. If legitimate tests show DNA from both of them together anywhere, it's important.

[curious]

As I have already stated, the Parlours' book devotes pages 211-220 to the 'shawl' (Appendix One) and had been assisted in research by Keith Skinner.

David Melville Hayes provided full details of his family provenance of the 'shawl' and identified the originator as his great-great-uncle, Amos Simpson, the ex-Metropolitan Police officer. The tale told was that Simpson 'was a police constable who was the first person to find the body in Mitre Square. He had picked the shawl up that night and had kept it. Amos was on some kind of special duty, which he assumed to mean that he was in plain clothes on surveillance duty with two or three other officers.'

Here we can see a scenario being developed for placing Simpson not only out of his divisional area, but out of his force area. David's mother was interviewed by Keith and the writer, but at 95 she was very frail and 'struggled to make herself understood.'

The old lady recalled that her mother had said that Amos had told her to look after the shawl as it might be valuable one day. She kept it in a chest and never bothered with it again. She was told very little about it but it was something to do with the Ripper, and Eddowes. When asked if she knew how he got it she replied, "No one knows. He was on duty then. He must have taken it off her. It got into his hands anyway!"

Excellent!

[Henry Flower]

cuddles

The moment I read excerpts from Naming JtR concerning the shawl being sold at auction, and saw there descriptions of Stewart Evans that made Stewart sound terse, cynical, coldly analytical, uncompromising and forthright, I knew this book and this author could not be trusted.

Everyone here knows that Stewart is a cuddly warm hug of a man, like a big loveable human blankie.

Even though his name is an anagram of SATANS WET PERV