Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Phil Carter]

Of all the different suspects why was Kosminski the one that was tested. Mr. Edwards must have chosen him as a suspect long before this "evidence" was put forward.
Also, not being able to disclose who the Kosminski family member was that the mDNA was obtained from leaves a huge question mark!
Something is not adding up!

Hello bladen7273,

Shawl/material of Eastern European origin.
pretty good fit for good ol' Kosminski..Polish.
Not Jacob Levy, please note.....Or any other known suspect of Eastern European Origin...

Was Kosminski "The Chosen One" ????

Good question bladen. IMHO.



best wishes

Phil

[Observer]

Common enough

Seems reasonable. One officer risked demotion by stealing vital crime scene evidence to keep as a trophy, then changed his mind and gave it to his mate PC Simpson to keep as a trophy, and PC Simpson decided his wife (or his dining room table) would look great covered in shades of dried blood and semen.

Common enough in the LVP.

Vital crime scene evidence?

No, considering the science available at the time it would far better be served as a turban for Ali Shish Kebab, local restaurateur, and champion pipe smoker. Also, forget the wife, forget the dinning room table, forget the fact it's "covered" in semen, and blood, think trophy. Stories become garbled in time.

[Observer]

Of all the different suspects why was Kosminski the one that was tested. Mr. Edwards must have chosen him as a suspect long before this "evidence" was put forward.
Also, not being able to disclose who the Kosminski family member was that the mDNA was obtained from leaves a huge question mark!

Another thing...I was a police officer for sixteen years, and I never had any inclination to take an item from a crime scene (especially one from a murder victim) to have as a keep sake. Why would this officer take a shawl covered in blood and then pass it down to his family members?

Something isn't adding up!!!!!

Ever work on a crime which approaches the magnitude of the Whitechapel series of murders?

[tinysteelorchestra]

Thanks Phil

1950's... so it lasted all that time. Frustrating!

[bladen7273.]

Ever work on a crime which approaches the magnitude of the Whitechapel series of murders?

Actually, I have, but I am not thinking that one hundred years from now they will ever be as infamous as the Ripper case. And I am sure that the constables working the Ripper case didn't either.
If they wanted a trophy of some kind why take something that is blood stained?
I would not want a blood stained piece of fabric to tell of my involvement with the case.

[Henry Flower]

Vital crime scene evidence?

No, considering the science available at the time it would far better be served as a turban for Ali Shish Kebab, local restaurateur, and champion pipe smoker. Also, forget the wife, forget the dinning room table, forget the fact it's "covered" in semen, and blood, think trophy. Stories become garbled in time.

OK Obs, I'll forget everything that doesn't fit, until it fits. Happy?

[Bitsie]

Of all the different suspects why was Kosminski the one that was tested. Mr. Edwards must have chosen him as a suspect long before this "evidence" was put forward.
Also, not being able to disclose who the Kosminski family member was that the mDNA was obtained from leaves a huge question mark!

Another thing...I was a police officer for sixteen years, and I never had any inclination to take an item from a crime scene (especially one from a murder victim) to have as a keep sake. Why would this officer take a shawl covered in blood and then pass it down to his family members?

Something isn't adding up!!!!!

I was assuming that after they 'discovered' this...

taken from Dr Jari Louhelainen in the Daily Mail article.

"Because of the genome amplification technique, I was also able to ascertain the ethnic and geographical background of the DNA I extracted. It was of a type known as the haplogroup T1a1, common in people of Russian Jewish ethnicity. I was even able to establish that he had dark hair"

...they decided on Kosminski via a process of elimination since he fit the ethnic bill.

[Bitsie]

aren't trophy's usually kept private? rather than taken home to the wife and discussed with descendants for generations?

also another officer picked this up for Simpson knowing he'd enjoy a trophy from a murder victim?

[Fisherman]

I was assuming that after they 'discovered' this...

taken from Dr Jari Louhelainen in the Daily Mail article.

"Because of the genome amplification technique, I was also able to ascertain the ethnic and geographical background of the DNA I extracted. It was of a type known as the haplogroup T1a1, common in people of Russian Jewish ethnicity. I was even able to establish that he had dark hair"

...they decided on Kosminski via a process of elimination since he fit the ethnic bill.

Here´s a snippet from the net, concerning haplogroup T1a1:

I am a member of Haplogroup T1a1, which is a subclade of haplogroup T. This means that my mother is a T1a1, and her mother, Helen Pancake (Woods) Dungan was a T1a1. Helen's mother, Clara Lengerich was also a T1a1, as was HER mother Francis Brokamp, as was HER mother Elizabeth Wattercutter, as was HER mother Maria Angela Rusche.
Maria Angela Rusche is as far back as I have been able to research my mtdna line. She was born somewhere in Germany in 1814. She married my 4th great-grandfather, Ferdinand Wattercutter on June 6, 1837 in Minster, Ohio. (Cue the Twilight Zone music...June 6 is also my wedding anniversary ). She died in Minster in 1837.
Mothers pass down their mtdna to ALL their children. This means that my son, Adam, is also a T1a1, and so are my siblings. My maternal uncles, my grandmother's siblings, and any children of my grandmother's sisters are also T1a1. Wow, that is a LOT of people!
Mtdna haplogroup T1a1 is most common in the United Kingdom. This struck me as odd until I read that is it believed that this haplogroup was spread into the UK by Vikings. Vikings?? How does that tie to Maria Angela Rusche?


The things you learn when dealing with the Ripper!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Bitsie]

Ah, very interesting Fisherman!

[Fisherman]

Some more to chew on: here we make the aquaintance of the T1a1a1 group, representative of the Middle East, Western Europe and Ashkenazi Jews. There is also group T1a1a2, representative of Syria and Ashkenazi Jews.
Those would perhaps have been the groups to expect when dealing with Aaron Kosminski.

T1a1 is instead representative of Northern Anatolia and Germany (the people in that last post of mine were Germans).

The plot thickens:

This phylogenetic tree of haplogroup subclades is based on the 2012 ISOGG Tree.

T (L445, L452, L455/PF5670, PR4091, L810, M184/Page34/USP9Y+3178, M272/PF5667, Page129) Found in Armenia and Northwest Europe. Also found in a South Australia European sample and a Palestinian individual.

T1 (L206, L490, M193) Found in Syria.

T1a (M70/Page46/PF5662, PAGES78) Found in Iran.

T1a1 (L162/Page21, L299, L453/PF5617, L454) Found in northern Anatolia and Germany.

T1a1a (L208/Page2, L905) Mostly found in western Europe, eastern Anatolia, Iran, Arabian Peninusla, Upper Egypt and Horn of Africa. Some spots in western Morocco, Sahrawis and Canarias.

T1a1a1 (P77) Mostly found in Middle East, western Europe and Ashkenazi Jews.

T1a1a2 (P321) Found in Syria and Ashkenazi Jews.

T1a1a2a (P317) Found in Syria and Italian Jews.

T1a2 (L131) Mostly found in northern Europe, eastern Europe, southeastern Europe and Anatolia. Also found in Xinjiang, Lemba, Tunisia, south and east Iberian Peninsula.

T1a2a (P322, P328) Found in Scandinavia, Denmark, Germany and Netherlands. Some spots in Yemenite Jews and Palestine(P327).

T1a2b (L446) Found in Northwest Europe and eastern Alps.

T1a3 (L1255) Found in Kuwait.

The best,
Fisherman
googling away

[Observer]

Actually, I have, but I am not thinking that one hundred years from now they will ever be as infamous as the Ripper case. And I am sure that the constables working the Ripper case didn't either.
If they wanted a trophy of some kind why take something that is blood stained?
I would not want a blood stained piece of fabric to tell of my involvement with the case.

Then it must have been one helluva crime. Care to tell us which crime?

Regarding the Ripper crimes, I can safely say that the police officials of the time realised that they were working on something very very different. The crimes were a sensation in their own lifetime, so to speak, with worldwide interest.

If Dew is anything to go by he bragged years later that he was one of the first officers on the scene at the Mary Kelly murder. Abberrline, Anderson, Smith et al, commented years later about their involvement in the crimes.

Just because you would deem it inappropriate to acquire a crime scene relic, it doesn't follow that officer's at the time had such scruples. Would the bloodstains have been apparent in the dimly lit Mitre Square?

[Fisherman]

Not that it changes much. If Louhelainen found a correlation with Kosminski, he found a correlation with Kosminski.

But if so, he got the haplogroup wrong, as far as I can tell. I´m no expert, other than on googling.

Or Aaron had another haplogroup of mitochondrial DNA than was to be expected.

Fisherman
likely haplogroup T1a2a

[Observer]

OK Obs, I'll forget everything that doesn't fit, until it fits. Happy?

Hi Henry

I'm as incredulous as you are regarding the "shawl". I'm just trying to think of ways it might fit into the scheme of things I havn't passed comment on the DNA aspect of the "shawl" because I havn't got a bleedin clue regarding such techniques. Let's listen what the experts have to say, and then we'll be better served to pass comment.

regards

Observer

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Observer, after years!

Well, I will wait til there will be Kosminski's dna found from the possible belongings of the four other more or less definitely known victims.

However, if there ever will be found the dna of Mary Jane Kelly, it probably will not enlighten her true identity in any way.

And now a piece of my amateur psychology: my explanation to the discrepancies of the eyewitnesses about the appearance of JtR: he was with a beard, without a beard, with a moustache, with a moustache and a beard under his chin, because he shaved between murders.

If this is the case, does it seem more pre-meditated than a behaviour of a madman?

All the best
Jukka