Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[Theagenes]

It's too long and wide to be a shawl or a stole. It looks exactly like a table runner.
I think this subject was discussed 3,000 posts ago...:-)


Amanda

I've read the entire thread and you're right, people have been saying this quite a bit. But that's not evidence -- that's just saying words.

You state that the dimensions are wrong. Do you have any particular expertise in historic clothing or textiles that should give us reason to lend weight to your opinion over that of the experts at the University of Liverpool who identified it as an early to mid 19th century shawl?

[Jeff Leahy]

I keep seeing people still referring to this as a "table runner" and not just you Amanda. I would like to know what the evidence is that this is a table runner or something else other than a shawl or stole.

Hi Theagenes

As far as I'm aware the 'Table runner' was the story that went with the artefact being Edwardian and screen printed. Presumably because table runners were fashionable during that period and because of its dimensions roughly 8 x 2, prop imperial.

So when the original dating went out the door I presume the ID went with it. I've still not been able to establish the precise origin of that information. I thought it had come from Andy Aliffe but apparently not, as Adam kindly confirmed that on this thread.

If anyone does know the origin I'd be grateful for the information.

HI Simon

I realise that Begg quoting Fido on the SRA question is a damn annoying check mate. I've studied and scratch my head on it often, and theres no getting around it..

However you could just ask Martin Fido yourself as I'm quite certain you could as your of their generation..

Frankly i don't give you much chance against Martin from everything I know and the little correspondence I have had.

The whole premise for Martins book was that Anderson not only knew what he was talking about but new more than anyone else. At that time perceived wisdom was that Andersons suspect was Pizzer. Martin put his theory to the test searching the records and was proved correct

He just didn't turn up what he was expecting to turn up…and such are great discoveries often made.

I wish you every success in your starting an argument with Martin

Yours Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

TLSOMOL is a must-read.

Simon, What do you think of the "O.U. Duck" brooch episode?

[Phil Carter]

Hi Jeff,

Martin Fido's Begg-proof argument creates an academic impasse which neatly works to the advantage of adherents of the Blessed Sir Robert Anderson, Patron Saint of Marginalia.

I am not an ordinary Joe easily bamboozled by rarefied flimflam.

I have read Messrs Fido and Begg in all their many and various permutations, and their arguments in defence of SRA as a pillar of rectitude are convoluted, full of handy get-out clauses and generally three sizes too big for the simple matter in hand.

The basic contention that SRA was not a vainglorious liar or boaster is just plain risible. He was a fabulist. For someone so politically disliked, SRA sure did manage to live a rich fantasy life.

TLSOMOL is a must-read.

Regards,

Simon

In total agreement.


Thank you Simon, well put.


best wishes

Phil



Note: This is a classic shownh at the 125th Conf. It isnt the Fido part that grabs me... it is the angle behind it... and the end will get you all realising why this Kosminski, Druitt stuff HAS to carry on. Myth upon myth. Watch it and think.... Kosminski...the shawl... it is entirely obvious why this has appeared and promoted.... another chapter in promotion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZSokXf6fRc

[Jeff Leahy]

Danny Rolling was not schizophrenic. But he cut off heads off anyway.
Arthur Shawcross was not shizophrenic. Still, he returned to victims to eviscerate them and consume their genitals.
Peter Sutcliffe was not scizophrenic. He nevertheless eviscerated his victims.
All the best,
Fisherman

Hold on a minute , you can't state that as fact. Sutcliffe was diagnosed as Schgizophrenic, and as far as I'm aware is being treated and medicated on schizophrenic drugs

I understand a lot of people say what your saying

But the reality is we still don't know exactly what schizophrenia is or how to precisely diagnose it… And can often take a long time of one to one observation.

I understand that Ian Brady the consummate supposed psychopathic killer is current diagnosed as Schizophrenic and that a recent court case up held this diagnosis..

So especially in Paraniod schizophrenia its often hard to tell where a Schizophrenic and a psychopath actually start…add to that the complication that we all sit on a sociopathic scale, and as schizophrenics are also part of the general population, that so do they…

So a certain percentage of schizophrenics could suffer both conditions..

Add to that the problem that drugs and alcohol can also induce 'psychotic episodes' just try taking half a dozen acid tabs and see what happens..

Its a much more complicated picture and not Black and white. Hence why were unable to rule out Kosminski committing the crimes Anderson and Swanson accuse him of…

Its possible Kosminski, its that simple, and would explain why he was harmless once removed from that environment

Yours Jeff

[Patrick S]

Where are now with Kozminski?

I've just finished Rob House's book on Kozminski and have begun Edwards' book. House builds a compelling case for Kozminski based on the avaiable (at the time of publication) evidence (i.e., no shawl, no DNA, no molecular geneticists, etc.).

For me, Kozminski had always been a part of the picture, but not one I'd taken too seriously as I was accustomed to reflexively dismissing what the likes of Anderson and Swanson had to say with respect to identity of the murderer. After re-reading a few highlighed sections of House's book, I'm now not so certain that was a wise course of action.
It's clear that there was an expectation that senior CID offials keep 'state secrets' and not 'tell takes out of school'. It's clear also that while he acknowledged these expectations, Anderson attempted to do just that throughout his later years. One get's the sense that he was a man with a secret he was dying to tell, but honor bound not to do so directly.

From the outset, Edwards' book is more sensational in it's presentation, and far less modest in it's claims ("Kozminski IS Jack the Ripper"). I won't pass judement on the entire book until I've finished it. I will say that, at this point, I'm inclined to view the shawl and the DNA results quite skeptically and Mr. Edwards has an uphill battle - and is off to a poor start - in convincing me otherwise. Still, we all know where the book leads and it's foolish, in my view, to join in the chorus of media proclaiming 'case closed'.
However, I find it equally silly to shout, "Fraud!", maintain that the "table runner" was nowhere near Mitre Square, assert that the DNA "proves nothing", and Kozminski was nothing but a meek, nonviolent, physically tiny, probably sane fellow who likely didn't even masturbate, much less kill prostitutes. Strange things can and have happened here in Ripperland.

The truth of the matter is that very little is known about Kozminski as a man, his personality, his illness, his life before, during and after the murders. I am certain that all this business will serve one vital purpose: It will incite many researchers - amateur and otherwise (some on this board, no doubt) - to look more closely at Aaron Kozminski. Perhaps one day soon his descendents may feel comfortable in coming forward and sharing some of their knowledge with respect to their now infamous ancestor. I'm certain this will happen. One day the carrot will grow large enough, no doubt.

I hope we'll soon see a few Kozminski threads opening up discussion about specifc aspects of his association (or lack thereof) with the murders. This thread, while entertaining from time time, is beginning to run in circles.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Scott,

What do I think of the "O.U. Duck" brooch episode?

The same as I think about SRA's oh-so privileged admission to Gosset's Room at the Palace of Westminster, his tenancy at Charles Reade's house [break-in included], his being offered a gewgaw by a couple of high-power Russians, and his fingering of a low-class Polish Jew for crimes the poor guy did not commit.

SRA displays all the hallmarks of an arsehole.

Regards,

Simon

[Jeff Leahy]

In total agreement.


Thank you Simon, well put.


best wishes

Phil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZSokXf6fRc

That was brave Phil, no chance of you taking on Martin Fido directly I think we can assume?

[John G]

I do not deny that what you said is true. But I am interested in looking at the likelihood of committing these acts for schizophrenic serial killers, versus in non-schizophrenic serial killers. I believe that the likelihood of cannibalism, evisceration, post-mortem mutilation and organ removal is much much higher in schizophrenic serial killers. Which is why the FBI, in the profile of Jack the Ripper, concluded that he was likely schizophrenic.

RH

Hi Rob,

I would refer to my earlier post, 3457. Thus, a Danish meta study revealed that stranger homicide by individuals suffering from psychosis was incredibly rare: 1 per 14,3 million people per year, with the victims most likely to be adult males (Nielssen et al, 2011). Here is the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...0/#!po=84.3750

Regarding schizophrenia, a British study found that of 85 perpetrators of homicide with schizophrenia only 12 killed a stranger. In contrast, of 560 perpetrators with a history of drug or alcohol misuse, 124 killed a stranger (Shaw, Amos, Appleby, 2004). Here is the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...?report=reader

It has even been contended that there has never been a single validated case of a schizophrenic serial killer (Castle & Hensley, 2002). The main reason, it is argued, is that having jumbled or confused thoughts is a common characteristic of schizophrenia and that this is incompatible with the kind of calculating personality required for serial killing: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-serial-killer

I would therefore contend that the weight of evidence suggests that JTR was much more likely to have been an alcohol or substance abuser, or perhaps neither of these things, than a psychotic or schizophrenic.

Regards,

John

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Scott,
SRA displays all the hallmarks of an arsehole.

Regards,

Simon

Thats not the academic conclusion that Fido reached, as far as I'm aware

And commentators can only be guided by the best expert analysis

Tis the nature of the beast….. and what I do

Yours jeff

[Fisherman]

Jeff Leahy: Hold on a minute , you can't state that as fact. Sutcliffe was diagnosed as Schgizophrenic, and as far as I'm aware is being treated and medicated on schizophrenic drugs

You are right - Sutcliffe is a bad example as there is evidently doubt in his case. As I remembered things, he tried to do a Berkowitz, and the court called his bluff.
Of course, the judge was none too impressed with Sutcliffes schizophrenia, but since it is not a concluded business, I´d be willing to drop him. It is not as if there is a lack of substitutions of psychopathic eviscerators, though!

But the reality is we still don't know exactly what schizophrenia is or how to precisely diagnose it… And can often take a long time of one to one observation.

I understand that Ian Brady the consummate supposed psychopathic killer is current diagnosed as Schizophrenic and that a recent court case up held this diagnosis..

So especially in Paraniod schizophrenia its often hard to tell where a Schizophrenic and a psychopath actually start…add to that the complication that we all sit on a sociopathic scale, and as schizophrenics are also part of the general population, that so do they…

So a certain percentage of schizophrenics could suffer both conditions..

Add to that the problem that drugs and alcohol can also induce 'psychotic episodes' just try taking half a dozen acid tabs and see what happens..

Its a much more complicated picture and not Black and white. Hence why were unable to rule out Kosminski committing the crimes Anderson and Swanson accuse him of…

Its possible Kosminski, its that simple, and would explain why he was harmless once removed from that environment

To me, that is not very interesting. A psychosis is a transfer into a parallel universe no matter how we cut things, and therefore psychotic killers will not be the ones who act silently, who take care not to leave traces, who tilt the heads of their throat-cut victims away from them to bleed them, who manage to sneak in and out undetected etcetera.

No matter how we try and make the different diagnoses float in and out of each other, there can not be a psychotic killer who plans his deed and executes it with full control of the parameters involved.

Psychosis involves loosing grip of reality, end of story.

And psychotic killers are rare.

And they predominantly kill within their circle of friends and aquaintances.

And that makes Aaron Kosminski a bad bid for the killers role - unless he did NOT suffer any psychosis when killing. That would be a fresh new take!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Rob,

I would refer to my earlier post, 3457. Thus, a Danish meta study revealed that stranger homicide by individuals suffering from psychosis was incredibly rare: 1 per 14,3 million people per year, with the victims most likely to be adult males (Nielssen et al, 2011). Here is the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...0/#!po=84.3750

Regarding schizophrenia, a British study found that of 85 perpetrators of homicide with schizophrenia only 12 killed a stranger. In contrast, of 560 perpetrators with a history of drug or alcohol misuse, 124 killed a stranger (Shaw, Amos, Appleby, 2004). Here is the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...?report=reader

It has even been contended that there has never been a single validated case of a schizophrenic serial killer (Castle & Hensley, 2002). The main reason, it is argued, is that having jumbled or confused thoughts is a common characteristic of schizophrenia and that this is incompatible with the kind of calculating personality required for serial killing: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-serial-killer

I would therefore contend that the weight of evidence suggests that JTR was much more likely to have been an alcohol or substance abuser, or perhaps neither of these things, than a psychotic or schizophrenic.

Regards,

John

Hi John

If you check out some of the posts on this subject on "The other site' you will note that I provide some statistic analysis from Finland re" Schizophrenia

it concludes that schizophrenics 'statistically' are more dangerous than general population

However I caveat this as follows

1) Schizophrenics are more prone to alcohol and Drug abuse. Thus statistically they are going to create a high violence print because the condition takes them into a higher violence category

2) Finland use a very specific 'Catigorization' for schizophrenic symptoms…its vary different from the same assessment used in the USA and thus very difficult to draw statistical analysis. Indeed its extremely difficult to compare international statistics per ce…That because they use different critia

3) Until an internation form of schizophrenic observation and symptom analysis is actually used… we are simply comparing potatoes with tomatoes, it don't really hold much water

So any analysis really comes down to One to One observation

We can generalise…but should be cautious of specific observation based on any counties specific schizophrenic crime statistics

Thats because you have to compare like with like..

And thats not available

Yours Jeff

[Fisherman]

Hi Rob,

I would refer to my earlier post, 3457. Thus, a Danish meta study revealed that stranger homicide by individuals suffering from psychosis was incredibly rare: 1 per 14,3 million people per year, with the victims most likely to be adult males (Nielssen et al, 2011). Here is the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...0/#!po=84.3750

Regarding schizophrenia, a British study found that of 85 perpetrators of homicide with schizophrenia only 12 killed a stranger. In contrast, of 560 perpetrators with a history of drug or alcohol misuse, 124 killed a stranger (Shaw, Amos, Appleby, 2004). Here is the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...?report=reader

It has even been contended that there has never been a single validated case of a schizophrenic serial killer (Castle & Hensley, 2002). The main reason, it is argued, is that having jumbled or confused thoughts is a common characteristic of schizophrenia and that this is incompatible with the kind of calculating personality required for serial killing: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-serial-killer

I would therefore contend that the weight of evidence suggests that JTR was much more likely to have been an alcohol or substance abuser, or perhaps neither of these things, than a psychotic or schizophrenic.

Regards,

John

Yes!!!

The best,
Fisherman

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff Leahy: Hold on a minute , you can't state that as fact. Sutcliffe was diagnosed as Schgizophrenic, and as far as I'm aware is being treated and medicated on schizophrenic drugs

You are right - Sutcliffe is a bad example as there is evidently doubt in his case. As I remembered things, he tried to do a Berkowitz, and the court called his bluff.
Of course, the judge was none too impressed with Sutcliffes schizophrenia, but since it is not a concluded business, I´d be willing to drop him. It is not as if there is a lack of substitutions of psychopathic eviscerators, though!

But the reality is we still don't know exactly what schizophrenia is or how to precisely diagnose it… And can often take a long time of one to one observation.

I understand that Ian Brady the consummate supposed psychopathic killer is current diagnosed as Schizophrenic and that a recent court case up held this diagnosis..

So especially in Paraniod schizophrenia its often hard to tell where a Schizophrenic and a psychopath actually start…add to that the complication that we all sit on a sociopathic scale, and as schizophrenics are also part of the general population, that so do they…

So a certain percentage of schizophrenics could suffer both conditions..

Add to that the problem that drugs and alcohol can also induce 'psychotic episodes' just try taking half a dozen acid tabs and see what happens..

Its a much more complicated picture and not Black and white. Hence why were unable to rule out Kosminski committing the crimes Anderson and Swanson accuse him of…

Its possible Kosminski, its that simple, and would explain why he was harmless once removed from that environment

To me, that is not very interesting. A psychosis is a transfer into a parallel universe no matter how we cut things, and therefore psychotic killers will not be the ones who act silently, who take care not to leave traces, who tilt the heads of their throat-cut victims away from them to bleed them, who manage to sneak in and out undetected etcetera.

No matter how we try and make the different diagnoses float in and out of each other, there can not be a psychotic killer who plans his deed and executes it with full control of the parameters involved.

Psychosis involves loosing grip of reality, end of story.

And psychotic killers are rare.

And they predominantly kill within their circle of friends and aquaintances.

And that makes Aaron Kosminski a bad bid for the killers role - unless he did NOT suffer any psychosis when killing. That would be a fresh new take!

All the best,
Fisherman

Yeah I get this Fisherman

Psychotic killers lose grip on reality…but where…watch 'A beautiful mind' a true story where the schizophrenic gets a nobel prize. A true story.

But again I say the only credible experiment is to take a room full of ripperologists at the next conference and dose them out of their minds on LSD and record the psychotic affect

Frankly I think the laugh from getting Lynn on camera doing this test would be TV dynamite in itself and justify the experiment

Not only that but give everyone involved at the conference the time of their life Most people experiencing such hallucination are harmless…then we have the murder of Sally Anne Bowman

Yours Jeff

[Fisherman]

[QUOTE=Jeff Leahy:

[I]Psychotic killers lose grip on reality…but where…watch 'A beautiful mind' a true story where the schizophrenic gets a nobel prize. A true story.
[/I]
Why not? Les extrèmes ses touchent, Jeff. Scizophrenia is not in any shape or form knit to intelligence levels, I would gather.

But again I say the only credible experiment is to take a room full of ripperologists at the next conference and dose them out of their minds on LSD and record the psychotic affect

Hmmm - but it would only turn really interesting if one of us performed a murder without leaving a trace and without being seen...

Frankly I think the laugh from getting Lynn on camera doing this test would be TV dynamite in itself and justify the experiment

Agreed, actually!

Not only that but give everyone involved at the conference the time of their life Most people experiencing such hallucination are harmless…then we have the murder of Sally Anne Bowman

Bowman? Yes, her killer was supposedly on drugs. But he still managed to rmember to steal some of her belongings, like her cell phone and her purse - he was no more psychotic than that. And he attacked her out in the open street, allowed her to scream, and raped her and bit her, leaving his tooth marks on her body.

Not exactly the way the Ripper would have gone about it, is it?

The best,
Fisherman