Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[mickreed]

Yep and that's a pattern throughout the book. It's maddeningly frustrating.

Indeed, and it's also - what was that word? - amateurish, at best, deliberately manipulative at worst. I incline to the former.

[Patrick S]

I've stated previously that there have been serial killers who have suffered from schizophrenia. But schizophrenia is not enough to make one a killer. They would have to have an overlying condition such as some kind of personality disorder as well.

I'm not a psych, so I'm not going to say "no schizophrenics are murderers" but I'll only repeat what I've been told and what the literature says: violence of this kind from people with schizophrenia is very rare. People suffering from schizophrenia are rarely violent in the manner of the Whitechapel murderer. That's a whole different ball game.

What we need from Kosminski is any evidence at all that he's violent, that he hates women, that he attacks prostitutes.

There isn't any.

What we're probably looking at for Jack: a person with a serious anti-social personality disorder - a psychopath - who may have schizophrenia on top of that, if we're comparing to Berkowitz (who may have been lying about the voices, btw) et al.

P.S. Try finding "neurosis" in DSM V. Good luck.



Most auditory hallucinations are not "command" voices. They're comments or random noises.

If schizophrenics are all dangerous homicidal maniacs, then we'd see a lot more Ripper murders, a lot more Geins, a lot more of all these other ones. Like I said, they're rare. That doesn't rule it out, it just makes it less likely.

This is all about likelihood.



I disagree. I think we can make definitive determinations about the Whitechapel Murderer based on the studies of serial killers of the 20th C. and by the evidence he left behind, which is fairly significant. We can rule out certain things based on obsolete theories, failed logic and disproven claims.

Conjecture is fine, but wild claims based upon obsolete theories or misunderstood terminology should be identified and dismissed.



Can you provide evidence that any of these people were aware of Kosminski in 1888?

I see no evidence for that, yet. So I'm not convinced. When I see evidence for contemporary suspicion of Kosminski I'll be more alert.

I'm not aware that Abberline ever heard of the guy, as it happens. I could be wrong.

Macnaghten actually ruled Kosminski out.

These sources make errors, contradict one another, are vague and make claims that are ludicrous ("self abuse"). Tell me, why I should accept such statements from years after the events without critical analysis? Appeal to authority is a fallacy.



You will not see any peer review or independent studies on these results any time soon, unless my cynicism has overtaken me.




I don't see any evidence for that.

So, you think Kozminski was just some guy who liked to masterbate, huh?

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer

https://archive.org/details/mansmissiononear00jour

Page 77. Search for self-abuse and you'll find I probably selected the least apocalyptic of his warnings.

Many thanks for that, Mick!

The best,
Fisherman

[mickreed]

Originally Posted by Patrick St
But, I think it's obvious that there was more 'wrong' with Aaron Kozminski than the fact that he praticed 'self abuse', even from the comparatively little we know about him.

Enlighten us, Patrick, please.

[mickreed]

So, you think Kozminski was just some guy who liked to masterbate, huh?

Jeez, I thought everything Mabuse has said, says we don't know even that about him.

I mean, where does this stuff come from?

[Fisherman]

I mean, where does this stuff come from?

Sīthe cloth from which dreams are wowen, Mick...! Shawl cloth.

The best,
Fisherman

[Jeff Leahy]

Claims. Anderson claims it. I'm an evidence guy, I want to see the data.

These men didn't know what sent Kosminski mad; they thought it was because he liked to fondle himself. How much more credible can the rest of their reasoning be?
The idea that masturbation is associated with mental illness of this type is ludicrous.

Well of course its ludicrous. But we don't known why MacNaughton or Anderson believed him to be a compulsive masturbator "Reduced to the level of a beast" and I don't think just saying it was prejudice is at all fair.

Perhaps Anderson witnesses the man for all we know?

What we know is what the sources tell us. That Aaron masturbated.

We only have these reports of his symptoms which are sketchy.

Yes at last. This is what I have been saying. We have very little to go on. Only the sources that we have. Most of Aarons asylum records relate to his physical condition.

It's possible he was an unknown genius who prefigured Einstein in physics equations. It is just very unlikely.

It's possible for Kosminski to be capable of many things, but what does the evidence show? The actual evidence doesn't suggest Kosminski is anything more than a poor sufferer of delusional psychosis. He lives in the area of the murders; so did thousands of others. So what?

People with this kind of illness are very rarely homicidal. This is a fact.

If you want to put Kosminski in the frame you need evidence that he had more than just this form of mental illness, that he was a violent maniac. That evidence has not been presented. I don't think it exists.

Ok, we've concluded we have vary little to go on with Aarons known records. Most experts I've spoke to believe Aaron suffered a form of Schizophrenia.

Now what do we know about Jack the Ripper. Again very little. What we do know is this type of serial killer is very rare. Very Rare indeed. In fact I can't think of another case that even does close.

If you go back and look at the photos of Mary Kelly I think we can conclude that we are looking at the work of someone with a very sick mind. Whether you choose to believe a psychopath capable thats your choice, but my opinion is this is the work of a 'psychotic Mind' Most mental illness can of course under various conditions experience psychosis.

But based on what is known about Aaron Kosminski condition we can't exclude him. Thats because we don't know enough about him. But we do know he suffered a form of Schizophrenia, and if he was self medicating taking alcohol, common among schizophrenics then he could have become psychotic.

Thats not saying he did. Just that it is possible..

Then we balance that against what Swanson says "Kosminski was the Suspect"

What we are left with is a credible suspect for the Mantal of Jack the Ripper

I am not new to Ripper research, I am merely new to talking about it. I've been vacuuming up Ripper info since I was a kiddy when I lived in London. I've roamed those very streets. I read every book I could get my hands on, and traced the paths of the Whitechapel Murderer, or what is left of them, on foot.

Yawn, do we really require your life history?

I'm no expert. I've no published books. I write fiction. I work in the entertainment business. I'm not a criminal psychologist or anything. But I've been fascinated by this case for multiple decades, and I'm not stupid. I've read tens of thousands of posts here. And I've been reading your posts, too.

I know we will never know. I just find mysteries fascinating.

It's always possible some factoid has been overlooked, some data hidden in an old document may reveal some new information.

You are entitled to your opinion. I will support your right to present your opinion until the sun burns out.

I just don't see Kosminski as a good suspect, largely because of my experience with the mentally ill, and the paucity of the evidence against him. It's weak as P.

I enjoy a good debate and logical reasoning, though.

Yeah, well, this is it, isn't it? There's no evidence for this. It's conjectural.

This is what happens when we have a favourite suspect, we look at the evidence and massage it to fit our particular view, it is cognitive bias. We're all guilty of it. It's human nature. I don't blame you, you think Kosminski dunnit. So it looks to you that he's the fella, and every little shred of material will support that from your viewpoint. I just have to agree to disagree. I don't have any books published, I just have three decades of interest. God only knows why, it's a horrible story to be interested in. It's macabre.

Kosminski got banged up in 1891. Three years after the last suspected Ripper killing. Why didn't he do anything in the intervening time? No evidence of him being a suspect at that time, nor being locked up elsewhere. Where is the evidence he was locked up in '89?

Got to be an hypothesis for this hiatus.

Loads of people at the time and place ended up in the workhouse or the loony bin. I very much doubt if every one of them were surveilled by the police prior or due to it. There's no evidence that Aaron Kosminski was watched.

What we know is that the police watched someone. And that fits the story given by Swanson. In fact much of what Sagar and Cox say is interesting.

While there is no direct proof they were watching Aaron Kosminski there are still things that might be confirmed..

The man with short dark curley hair fore instance..

I'll leave you to your ripper research.. as its a beautiful day here in the UK and I have outside jobs to do

Yours Jeff

PS If you check almost every post I've ever made on the subject you'll note that i have gone to extrodinary lengths to explain that Schizophrenics are NOT dangerous. They are No more likely than other members in society to commit violent crimes…however there are vary rare occasions that they can become dangerous usually during a period known as 'Psychotic Episode' usually associated with an external catalyst.

[Fisherman]

If you go back and look at the photos of Mary Kelly I think we can conclude that we are looking at the work of someone with a very sick mind. Whether you choose to believe a psychopath capable thats your choice, but my opinion is this is the work of a 'psychotic Mind' Most mental illness can of course under various conditions experience psychosis.

Yours Jeff

This is where I find it hard to concur, Jeff. Look at what psychopaths have done to their victims. Shawcross, who eviscerated, the Texas eyeball killer Albright, Danny Rolling...

I donīt think we should expect to be able to see on the surface of the Ripper what he was about. I suspect there is every chance that he lived what looked like a normal life to any casual onlooker, and perhaps even to those who looked more closely at him.

The best,
Fisherman

[mickreed]

Hi Jeff

What we know is what the sources tell us. That Aaron masturbated.

Well, so far as I know Jeff, all young blokes masturbate at some time or other. If you didn't/don't then I'll take that back. But was masturbation central to AK's being as Macnaghten, and many who came after, seems to suggest? We certainly do not know that.

But we do know he suffered a form of Schizophrenia, and if he was self medicating taking alcohol, common among schizophrenics then he could have become psychotic.

Thats not saying he did. Just that it is possible.

We know he was diagnosed as being 'insane'. Some assume this was schizophrenia. That's far from knowing. It could have been something else. And then that 'if'. If he did so-and-so, he could have become psychotic. Yes it's possible, and it's equally, if not more possible, that he didn't.

Yawn, do we really require your life history?

Well, why not, after all, you implied he was just starting out, by saying what he will discover about this game.

its a beautiful day here in the UK

Now that I do miss sometimes.

[Patrick S]

Originally Posted by Patrick St
But, I think it's obvious that there was more 'wrong' with Aaron Kozminski than the fact that he praticed 'self abuse', even from the comparatively little we know about him.

Enlighten us, Patrick, please.

You can enlighten yourself, I think. There's plenty of information available on this site, in fact.

Alas, I thought that Kozminski was a paranoid schizophrenic? Wasn't that mabuse's argument? I realize they are "harmless" and not prone to murder any more than the averge fellow(mabuse, again), but.....it would seem to me that being a masturbator alone does not qualify one as a paranoid schizophrenic?

[Peter F Young]

You can enlighten yourself, I think. There's plenty of information available on this site, in fact.

Alas, I thought that Kozminski was a paranoid schizophrenic? Wasn't that mabuse's argument? I realize they are "harmless" and not prone to murder any more than the averge fellow(mabuse, again), but.....it would seem to me that being a masturbator alone does not qualify one as a paranoid schizophrenic?

My brother was diagnosed severe paranoid schizophrenic 44 years ago
He could ejaculate by power of thought alone
He told me 30 yrs ago he could kill someone with no penalties...

[Errata]

Jeez, I thought everything Mabuse has said, says we don't know even that about him.

I mean, where does this stuff come from?

His admission form I believe, altered 6 years after the fact. But to the best of my knowledge, there is no record or no statement from anyone who might be in a position to know that there were any incidents of public masturbation.

There are two points I feel are necessary to make.

1: If masturbation caused serial killing we would be living in a zombie apocalypse type world. However the stigma against masturbation is so strong that anyone who engages in public masturbation, certainly in Western culture, has something pretty seriously wrong with them. Or is an exhibitionist. Usually severe intoxication, but not always. Even those with mania (who are the most prone to instantaneous gratification) do not engage in public masturbation unless they are literally about to die. And by that I mean that the mania is so intense that they cannot sleep, cannot eat, hallucinate, lose equilibrium, and start shaking. A state of mania that if not shut down is lethal within two weeks. And the behavioral effects of that level of mania are usually due to the brain shutting down trying to save itself from lack of sleep and food, not the mania itself. So in short, someone so far gone to publicly masturbate is typically not a serious threat. Someone so drunk that they do it is not in a position to successfully get away with murder, and the same holds true for mental illness.

2: When someone is in a psych ward, whether it be a 72 hour tune up or for life, their statements cannot be taken as gospel truth. They are legally protected now for a reason. And it's not just protect a patients reputation. The diagnostic and treatment is intense, and full of a bunch of fits and starts, and wrong turns. And I'm not entirely sure I know how to explain it to someone who has not gone through it. You are scared. You are tired. You don't want to be there, but mostly you don't want to have to be there. You have no idea what is going to happen, and you have no idea why this happened in the first place. And you get asked a ton of questions, and some of them ring slightly true. You wants answers badly, because if there's an answer maybe it can be fixed. And you say things that aren't true, or exaggerate things that are. You are trying to please the doctor. Pleasing the doctor gets you home.

To give an example, a majority of women (and many men) come through the experience with doubts about their safety they never had before. A lot of behaviors are easily explained by childhood sexual abuse. Consequently anyone displaying those behaviors are asked about childhood sexual abuse. A lot. Every day. They are questioned extensively, even asked about people they may have felt unsafe around without knowing why etc. For someone who was not a victim, it makes them doubt. And some of them come to the conclusion that they were abused, they simply don't remember. Sometimes they confabulate memories. it is not done with ill will, or the wish to punish someone. It's because an explanation for why they aren't okay is so necessary for a feeling of security. And everybody seems so sure that's what happened or they wouldn't keep asking, and they are the experts after all. Those kinds of conclusions typically don't last. But they create a lot of chaos in the meantime.

The statement of self abuse could have come from many places. First of all, it could have been assumed. Let's not pretend these people had a solid grasp of mental illness and it's causes. Secondly, they could have simply asked him, and he answered honestly. So he's in the 90% or so of the population who masturbates, but he's altered enough that he actually cops to it. Thirdly, it may have come from observed behavior. Which in asylums is not that unusual, but these are also people who could never pass as sane. Lastly, he could have been so desperate to get answers, to get home, that he simply agreed with some doctor's projections of what the cause of his problems was. This is not as simple as "Someone wrote it down so it's true". And it's not even as simple as "Well someone lied when they wrote that down". It could be either, or neither. It could even be both.

I will say that public masturbation to the best of my knowledge has never gone along with Scrupulosity, so it seems unlikely to be true. But if it is so, I have to say it indicates a lack of control and understanding of social norms to make such a person an unlikely Ripper.

[Patrick S]

Sīthe cloth from which dreams are wowen, Mick...! Shawl cloth.

The best,
Fisherman

Ah....but we'd be singing a different tune if it were Charles Cross' DNA at issue here, wouldn't we, Fish?

[Patrick S]

My brother was diagnosed severe paranoid schizophrenic 44 years ago
He could ejaculate by power of thought alone
He told me 30 yrs ago he could kill someone with no penalties...

Well....some on here may be about to call you a liar.

[Patrick S]

This is where I find it hard to concur, Jeff. Look at what psychopaths have done to their victims. Shawcross, who eviscerated, the Texas eyeball killer Albright, Danny Rolling...

I donīt think we should expect to be able to see on the surface of the Ripper what he was about. I suspect there is every chance that he lived what looked like a normal life to any casual onlooker, and perhaps even to those who looked more closely at him.

The best,
Fisherman

WAIT! I know a guy just like that! Charles....somethingorother....