Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[mickreed]

Hi Phil,

Prove that either Amos or the shawl were anywhere in the vicinity of Mitre Sq. that night, then there might be something worth discussing.

Until that happens everything else is moot.

I'm not good at joining dots, but I am intrigued.

Amanda

Seems you're not bad at joining dots - or at least, making sense.

[mickreed]

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Hurrah!

[PaulB]

To PaulB

I do not see a question mark over whether Anderson's suspect is Aaron Kosminski.

I think he was -- with a big caveat.

The resemblance is too close according to the bits and pieces that Macnaghten writes, and communicates via proxies; a Polish-Jew, living in the heart of the kill-zone, with homicidal tendencies separate from the murders, a chronic self-abuser, out and about for a long time after the Kelly murder and still alive in the 1900's.

The tension in the sources is because Anderson knows just the fictional variant of this suspect: eg. only at large for weeks (he wasn't), off the streets by early 1889 (he wasn't), (identified by a Jewish witness (he wasn't), deceased soon after being sectioned (he wasn't) and ... a chronic masturbator (he was).

Well, you rely heavily on Macnaghten, which I don't, and try to fit all the sources into a coherent whole, which I don't think works. But I am excited by your forthcoming child which could do with a tad publicity and looking forward to seeing your thinking all laid out. A highlight of next year.

[christoper]

He WAS quiet, he DID enter and leave Mitre Square without anybody seeing him, he DID manage to cut Eddowes neck with no visible jet of blood shooting out over the ground, he DID avoid having blood ending up on the jacket or on the front of her clothes, at least not visibly so.

Of course the police could not look at the clothing in UV light, for example, and yes, forensics was a new science, but the overall impression must be that of a cautious killer.

The more typical psychotic killer would attack Eddowes violently, giving her ample time to cry out, throw her to the ground and himself on top of her and press her to the ground before cutting her neck, resulting in an almighty jet of blood shooting out over the square. Then he would rip her open violently, spattering blood in all directions, and cut her organs out. He may well have shouted insults at her all the time when moving along. Afterwards, he would get up and leave the square with blood all over him, quite possibly shouting at anybody who saw him approach.

Generalizations? Sure enough. But this is how psychotics go about things, very roughly speaking. They do not care if they are seen or not, they sometimes make it a point to BE seen, they do not care if they leave bloody footprints etcetera, and they do not care if their lips are lined with blood as they emerge from the very few murder scenes psychotics are responsible for. That΄s why they are normally not succesfull serial killers.

All the best,
Fisherman

I was under the impression there was more variability in how psychotic symptoms can present--so I guess I stand corrected.

A friend was murdered by a supposed psychotic when I was in college--the killer's behavior was not as you describe so probably the psychiatric professionals were in error and misdiagnosed. Good to know.

Glad to hear that so-called "psychos" are so simple to catch and rarely get away with multiple murders--it is a load off my mind.

[PaulB]

General Information for Posters:

1. The Personal Attack policy is in place and will be enforced on this thread. Do not attack other posters. Even if they totally deserve it and even if they started it. You will receive an infraction. Just like they will, until everyone is banned and peace reigns and the Admin can go drink margaritas on a nice beach in Aruba.

2. If you cannot discuss the adult content of this case without resorting to sophomoric terminology such as wanking, jizz. boner, etc, don't post about these issues.

If your mommy never taught you the grown-up words for things, now is a good time to go and enrich your vocabulary so that you can have a mature conversation.

Dehumanizing the victims and the crimes committed against them with juvenile terminology will not be tolerated on this board.

Good.

[curious4]

Hello Gwyneth.

"Reading the inquest on Annie Chapman (the place where it would be easiest to see this, small enclosed space) I can't see that there is evidence that there is any. Six spots of blood varying in size, the largest the size of a sixpence on the wall and some smears. Death due to severing of the carotid artery (not the jugular, which would spurt)."

I wonder if perhaps the partial strangulation were responsible for that?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn

That's what I was thinking but don't seem to be able to find anything to support it. What I did find was that cutting the carotid artery would not result in arterial spray - if I understood it right. It does seem to me that there was none in any of the murders and therefore finding it on the shawl, tablerunner or whatever would point away from it being in the vicinity of Kate's murder.

Best wishes

Gwyneth

[lynn cates]

P A V

Hello Amanda. And that is ESPECIALLY troubling regarding:

1. Who owned the "shawl"? Aaron or Kate?

2. How did Amos come by it? A superior? Found it? Given to him? Soon? Late?

I invite you to think of the PAV case. After it was concluded he was elsewhere when the victims died, there were all sorts of ad hoc solutions to keep the theory alive.

Sound familiar?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

force

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks. I once asked a venapuncturist if he had ever inadvertently stuck an artery rather than a vein. He indicated that it had happened only once. But the pressure was so great it forced the needle out of the arm.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

I was under the impression there was more variability in how psychotic symptoms can present--so I guess I stand corrected.

A friend was murdered by a supposed psychotic when I was in college--the killer's behavior was not as you describe so probably the psychiatric professionals were in error and misdiagnosed. Good to know.

Glad to hear that so-called "psychos" are so simple to catch and rarely get away with multiple murders--it is a load off my mind.

A whiff of sarcasm, yes...?

I΄m sure there will be deeds of varying kinds among psychotics, Christopher. And hopefully, you will have noted that I said that I dealt in generalizations and that the picture I gave was a "very rough" one.

I do, however, have major problems reconciling a psychotic killer with at least a handful of silent deeds with no traces left behind and nobody noticing anything out of order.

I think that we should look for the killer along the axis of psychopathy and narcissism, and not among the psychotics.

That΄s why I do not favour Aaron Kosminski for the Rippers role.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Chris]

What I did find was that cutting the carotid artery would not result in arterial spray - if I understood it right.

Sorry, but I don't think that can be correct. In another case I'm researching in which the throat was cut there was a lot of arterial spray, and it evidently persisted for some time.

[Wickerman]

The degree of arterial spray depends on pressure within the system, it is a clue to whether the heart was still beating.
Little to no arterial spray means she was dead.

[Amanda Sumner]

Hello Amanda. And that is ESPECIALLY troubling regarding:

1. Who owned the "shawl"? Aaron or Kate?

2. How did Amos come by it? A superior? Found it? Given to him? Soon? Late?

I invite you to think of the PAV case. After it was concluded he was elsewhere when the victims died, there were all sorts of ad hoc solutions to keep the theory alive.

Sound familiar?

Cheers.
LC

Hello, LC.
I am assuming this is a reply to my post, as there is another Amanda on here.
I feel I can answer both questions.

1. Neither

2. Debatable, but not from anyone or anywhere to do with the Eddowes case.

As for PAV, it seems that many on here and elsewhere I can liken to terrier dogs that won't let go of a bone.

No offence intended. :-)

Cheers,

Amanda

[curious4]

Sorry, but I don't think that can be correct. In another case I'm researching in which the throat was cut there was a lot of arterial spray, and it evidently persisted for some time.

Hello Chris

Doesn't sound right, does it? I shall have to go back and read it again!

Best wishes
C4

[Gene Lewis]

Hello everybody

Daily Star vs Daily Mail :

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/399687/EXCLUSIVE-Jack-the-Ripper-Polish-barber-police-detective

[ajcol]

Amos Simpson's duties

Daily Star vs Daily Mail :

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/late...lice-detective

Thanks for the link, Gene.

Probably been asked and already answered on here - (my head is spinning from trying to keep up ) - but, if Amos can't be proved to have been at Mitre Sq area as he was on 'special duties', would there be a record of him anywhere else on normal duty during that particular period? - Apologies to all if I've missed this somewhere.

Alan.