Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[GUT]

All I know is she seems to like reading Ripper books, but hates the people who author them. Strange that.

Why is that strange?

Now liking reading the books but hating the author getting pad for it that's strange.

Wonder how Wolfie thinks people make a living?

[GUT]

It was not intended to be a jibe, I am sure the general public have no clue how much effort, blood sweat and tears is behind all research, published or not.
Surely it is time now for all researchers to work together for a common goal, to honor the memory of the poor dead women. Instead of sniping at each other, like children in a playground,

G'day Wolfie

Not sure f you're n the right place for that.

But you seem pretty good at sniping at people for making a $ off their work.

A lot o0f people are here because of empathy with the victims and the poor buggers living n the East End at the time, and I include some of the authors in that.

[wolfie1]

Why is that strange?

Now liking reading the books but hating the author getting pad for it that's strange.

Wonder how Wolfie thinks people make a living?

Keep going boys, you are demonstrating the bullying behaviour that this board is famous for

[Jeff Leahy]

Or anywhere. It was a global economy then, too, or else you would not have silk in St Petersburg. And which part of the fabric did he test? Where do you get the idea that JtR's victims were all strangled?

I have no idea how Dr Fyaz Ismail came to his conclusion. I have written to him and asked.

There is evidence at most of the murders of possible strangulation. As you point out these do seem to vary in there evidence.

I've postulated that Jack firstly strangled his victims lowered the to the floor and cut their throats to reduce their blood pressure before attempting to mutilate for sexual pleasure.

Mary Ann Nichols' post mortem: “There was a bruise running along the lower part of the jaw on the right side of the face. That might have been caused by a blow from a fist or pressure from a thumb. There was a circular bruise on the left side of the face which also might have been inflicted by the pressure of the fingers.” Probably not from strangulation but from an attacker facing her, lifting her chin with his right hand, and cutting her throat with his left hand.

Possibly. There were signs of bruising. The case I've made is that their are significant differences in each of the attacks. and thats because serial killers don't always use exclussive MO attack stratigies. There goals are what is important and Jacks goal was sexual mutilation.

Annie Chapman: No sign of strangulation. Possible signs of suffocation (there's a difference) were swelling of her face and her protruding tongue, but no petechial hemorrhages on the face or eyes are mentioned.

Elizabeth Stride: No sign of strangulation.

Catherine Eddowes: No sign of strangulation. “The cause of death was haemorrhage from the left common carotid artery.”

Mary Jane Kelly: No sign of strangulation. Per Dr George Bagster Phillips, “The blood was produced by the severance of the carotid artery, which was the cause of death.”

Elizabeth Stride was described as pale. She had possible fainted. This might have been caused by pressure to the cartriod artery.

Cheap Freudian analyses are fun but not appropriate in serious investigations, especially since much of Freud has been tossed out by the psych people. OTOH, this isn't a serious investigation, so Freud away!
Few, but not none. And why would Jack, of ALL people, be bothered if he left a mark?

If you'd care to have actually read my post you would have noted I was talking about Harold Jones a known serial killer who had a fixation on his mother and carried Ladies handkerchiefs in an obsessive collection. I simply postulated with Aaron might have had a similar fetish based on another known serial killer.

No, for a garrote to be used in murder like that you want something thin and strong. Most special forces use piano wire with wooden handles, others use thin rope or cord. Suitable cords available to Jack would be packing twine and window sash cord. And eight feet is an awkward length to use. But it's moot because none of the victims were strangled!
Stride was pale because she was exsanguinated, for crying out loud! And Swedish—it goes with the territory.

Yes I never said the table clothe would make a good garrotte or ligature. Simply that it was made of silk and could possible have done so. Thus giving another reason for its presence. Thats because I think it unlikely it was owned by Cathrine Eddows. All i do know is that there appears to be a positive DNA match to the blood of Catherine Eddows. Giving us a good possibility it was connected to the crime in some way.

Just a question to satisfy a newbie's curiosity: Given that Aaron Kosminski, according to this very website, was not even mentioned as a suspect until 1894, and then without a first name so there can be multiple claimants, why are you so invested in his guilt? From my limited exposure to you you seem unwilling to brook any gainsaying of your cherished belief, and are willing to force facts to make them support it.

Well first of all we don't know when Aaron Kosminski became a police suspect. We certainly don't now it was 1894. What your going to learn in this field is that we don't actually know very much as so little has survived.

Frankly however given the latest information on Aaron's possible living location at the time, one can't help thinking he would have been very well known by all and sundry (Including Fany Mortimer who like to watch) and the police would have been negligent if they hadn't of at least checked him out. They did after all do an extensive house to house enquire.

I have privately speculated having listened to ripperologist Rob House, that kosminski was first taken seriously as a suspect when his sister Matilda was introduced to Anderson via a letter from the Earl of Crawford which Anderson kept all his life to remind him of what ever was discussed at that meet (But that is speculation)

My reason for favouring Aaron Kosminski as a suspect is actually the lack of credible evidence against any of the other suspects…There is only one credible suspect thats because Anderson claimed they knew who Jack the Ripper was… and like Martin Fido I don't think he would have made that up. And that the person who new more about this case then anybody else who ever lived clearly wrote in private 'Kosminski was the Suspect' and given the research done by many top ripperologists in the field, in all probability he was talking about Aaron.

Good luck with your investigative journey

Yours Jeff

[Monty]

G'day Wolfie

Not sure f you're n the right place for that.

But you seem pretty good at sniping at people for making a $ off their work.

A lot o0f people are here because of empathy with the victims and the poor buggers living n the East End at the time, and I include some of the authors in that.

Some of did have ancestors living in the East end at the time.

Monty

[PaulB]

Mtd is secondary DNA which means that in 1888 400.000 people would have the same MtD profile
Nuclear is primary DNA in today's world one in a billion would have an identical match excluding identical twins

Of course not forgetting all the people who have handled it and added their DNA to it over the years thus increasing the percentages way above the 400.000 likely to have the same profile,
.000

Trevor
Have to actually read the book?

An explanation is given therein for why the shawl will not contain the DNA of all the people who have handled the shawl over the years. It is also stated that the Eddowes mtDNA is a rare strain that limits the number of people with it in London in 1888 to a mere handful.

Why do you think the scientist who conducted the tests isn't as dismissive of them as you are? Do you presume to know more about DNA than he does?

And you have been asked several times to state your source for the figure of 400,000 you keep bandying around.

It might help if the actually addressed the questions asked here and the arguments presented in the book instead of repeating the same thing over and over.

[PaulB]

And not forgetting the fact that Edwards claims that Kosminski was the killer based on these results.

That is as about as far from reality as you could expect to go. With what is known there would not even be enough evidence to bring a charge against anyone let alone secure a conviction.

The shawl is what is termed as a "Moveable object" which means it can be owned, touched and thus contaminated by all and sundry. making any DNA even evidence unsafe even primary DNA. Even more so with this shawl as there is a mish mash of dna from many sources from many generations

Looking at things from a hypothetical view point if there were any descendants of other suspects traced and their dna obtained and also turned out to be Mtd on the shawl what would be the reaction then?

Just to add to the fact-base - Edwards was told by the former curator of Scotland Yard's Crime Museum that Aaron Kosminski was Jack the Ripper and that Scotland Yard had documentary evidence to prove it. When sperm was found on the apron, it was compared to the DNA provided by a descendant of Kosminski. Edwards wan't some Kosminskite trying to prove a pet theory, he was merely testing to see if there was a match to the man he was told was the Ripper.

Really, it would pay you to read the book.

[GUT]

Keep going boys, you are demonstrating the bullying behaviour that this board is famous for

G'day Wolfie

And unless I misunderstand you, you have just assumed I am a male.

[wolfie1]

Some of did have ancestors living in the East end at the time.

Monty

Monty, I have a personal family connection to the Kosminki family who resided at 5 Chicksand St during the killing spree in 1888' and I am not referring to Aaron himself. But another Kosminski family who migrated to Australia, after the killings, who are no longer here to defend themselves, so yes this is kind of personal to me.
If you want further information happy to provide to you via PM.

[richardnunweek]

Hi,,
So Scotland yard have known all along. they allowed all researchers to not only waste their time, but also a lot of money, whilst they sat back with a smirk on their faces...
We might as well give up now, and say we know who jack was...
Regards Richard.

[Trevor Marriott]

Just to add to the fact-base - Edwards was told by the former curator of Scotland Yard's Crime Museum that Aaron Kosminski was Jack the Ripper and that Scotland Yard had documentary evidence to prove it. When sperm was found on the apron, it was compared to the DNA provided by a descendant of Kosminski. Edwards wan't some Kosminskite trying to prove a pet theory, he was merely testing to see if there was a match to the man he was told was the Ripper.

Really, it would pay you to read the book.

Take the blinkers off.,

There is a tenuos link via mtd which could match thousands of other people a fact you and others seem to want to ignore. Now i wonder why that is. Oh yes let me think, is it because you are a Kosminski proponent?

We have an identical situation here as we had with the Marginalia and that expert. His results were inconclusive yet you and others swore by them as being conclusive. Here you are again apparently suggsting the same conclusive proof here.

[lynn cates]

forensics

Hello Dropzone. Welcome to the boards--if I have not done so previously.

Excellent post. There are glaring differences amongst these victims. You are correct.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

misplaced

Hello Wolfie.

"I was hoping post no 2000 would draw out the negative, self serving comments, and you did not let me down."

Neil Bell, like so many of us, has expended both his own money and time to help solve the mystery.

Hence, I feel your criticism misplaced.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

no reward

Hello Rocky.

"But what's more astonishing to me than the baseless accusations made by the author is the willingness of the casebookers to buy & read the book!!"

Not this one. I shall NEVER reward such flippant nonsense.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

If there's a perfect match in the mtDNA between the two samples then they share a common female ancestor. It is not being able to determine exactly when that female ancestor lived that gives the possibility that thousands of other descendants of that female share her mtDNA. There is also the possibility that the match was within the 5 generations. Probabilities that the match falls within a certain number of generations are usually used.