Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[lynn cates]

heh-heh

Hello Gwyneth. Thanks.

Heh-heh.

Cheers.
LC

[pinkmoon]

we march at midnight

Wanted huge savage mob to march on baron Edwards castle we assemble at midnight please bring lighted torch (offensive weapons optional) don't forget to dress for the weather might be a good idea to bring shawl to keep warm.

[lynn cates]

ethics

Hello Christopher. Thanks.

Looks like a question for the ethicist.

Cheers.
LC

[Theagenes]

Jeff
Like so many other aspects of this case you and others cleary cant grasp this DNA thing.

Yes, clearly, we don't grasp the "DNA thing." Maybe you could explain it to us since you're a real Ripperologist and you seem pretty sure about what it can and can't tell us.

What is on the shawl is secondary DNA. By reason of that those same secondary profiles could match 400.000 other people and they wouldn't have to all be connected by family ties.

You keep using this term "secondary DNA." Can you please explain what you mean by that? Also, you used the term "MTD" earlier, by which I assume you mean mtDNA. Can you please explain what this is and why it is different from other types of DNA? And can you please identify your source for your contention that the DNA recovered from the shawl could match 400,000 other people? And are you sure that those who match would not have "family ties"? Not even a common female ancestor?

It is always going to stay secondary there is not enough to formulate a full DNA profile. Even if they dug up Kosminski and obtained a full profile from his body it would not change the secondary. It would tell us what we already know and no more.

So there is no chance to recover any other types of DNA from the shawl other than this "secondary" DNA you keep referring to? And you're sure that no other types of DNA have already been recovered? And that the DNA that has been recovered isn't enough to get a full profile even with modern amplification techniques and next generation sequencing?

Sorry to ask so many questions, but I know you're an expert and I just want to make sure I'm clear on this "DNA thing" so I can give up on this crazy "science" stuff because it's really hard.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Simon,

We all know that various failed attempts to thrust Kosminski into the minds of Mr and Mrs Joe Public have occured in the past few years...books, documentaries etc.

This new rubbish will fall the way of the rest and Joe Public will still plump for PAV or at worst Walter Sickert,

So no matter how much Kosminski gets pushed the result will be the same... and that will be the way until somebody tries to manipulate him to the top of the totem pole again- by hook or by crook.

You can bet your last tanner on the fact that another book or documentary or book of the documentary or dvd of the making of the documentary based on the book is in the Kosminski pipeline.

All deliberate deflection- just like this latest attempt to pull the chintz over people's eyes.


Best regards

Phil

[Theagenes]

The problem that most of the vehement naysayers in this thread seem to have is that they keep railing against the mythical "Edwards supporter." But there is no one who has posted in this thread that has accepted the claims in this book at face value. No one. This has been pointed out multiple times by several individuals and there are a still vocal few who continue to act as though there is horde of shawl-worshiping apostates polluting these forums with their heresies.

There are some of us who are intrigued by the DNA results that have been presented (in a completely unprofessional and sensationalist manner I might add) and would like to see those results independently tested and replicated if possible, and perhaps subject to more intensive tests if possible and the results presented in a more sober manner and more appropriate venue.

It doesn't matter that the provenience of this shawl is questionable. It is an object that has long been associated with the Whitechapel murders, rightly or wrongly, and now the technology exists to test that hypothesis, weak as it may be. That's how science works -- it's methodology for testing hypotheses. Modern DNA fingerprinting has given us a new means for testing a number of hypotheses and the people on this forum of all places should embrace that.

Any artifact out there, however tenuously linked to the murders that could possibly produce DNA should be tested if possible and like wise any prominent suspects and victims whose descendants or relatives could provide mtDNA or Y-chromosome DNA for comparison should be sampled. The goal should be to start building a Whitechapel murders DNA database if possible. There have to be other "trophies" from the murders out there in collections, right?

[wolfie1]

DNA Database

The problem that most of the vehement naysayers in this thread seem to have is that they keep railing against the mythical "Edwards supporter." But there is no one who has posted in this thread that has accepted the claims in this book at face value. No one. This has been pointed out multiple times by several individuals and there are a still vocal few who continue to act as though there is horde of shawl-worshiping apostates polluting these forums with their heresies.

There are some of us who are intrigued by the DNA results that have been presented (in a completely unprofessional and sensationalist manner I might add) and would like to see those results independently tested and replicated if possible, and perhaps subject to more intensive tests if possible and the results presented in a more sober manner and more appropriate venue.

It doesn't matter that the provenience of this shawl is questionable. It is an object that has long been associated with the Whitechapel murders, rightly or wrongly, and now the technology exists to test that hypothesis, weak as it may be. That's how science works -- it's methodology for testing hypotheses. Modern DNA fingerprinting has given us a new means for testing a number of hypotheses and the people on this forum of all places should embrace that.

Any artifact out there, however tenuously linked to the murders that could possibly produce DNA should be tested if possible and like wise any prominent suspects and victims whose descendants or relatives could provide mtDNA or Y-chromosome DNA for comparison should be sampled. The goal should be to start building a Whitechapel murders DNA database if possible. There have to be other "trophies" from the murders out there in collections, right?

Exactly! Set up a DNA database of all known desc , primary and secondary lines, of victims and suspects. Ancestry.com has an extensive DNA procurement and database system in place, surely it is not that difficult to initiate a similar model and apply to examining and adding to exisiting knowledge and known evidence to solving a series of murders in 1888. Maybe not this year, but in years to come the database will then build and build over time to maybe one day enable the case to be solved.
We have the science, now go for it!

[Wickerman]

There are some of us who are intrigued by the DNA results that have been presented (in a completely unprofessional and sensationalist manner I might add) and would like to see those results independently tested and replicated if possible, and perhaps subject to more intensive tests if possible and the results presented in a more sober manner and more appropriate venue.

Indeed, there are a few of us who are intrigued by this DNA business.
Mr Edward's book is small potatoes without it, essentially Edwards has handed the reins to Dr Louhelainen, and Dr Louhelainen must know what is expected of him.

What we need is his report detailing what part he tested and why. Also the method employed, the equipment used, and the results in comprehensive terms. And, whether he used any control samples, or blind tests to further enhance his analysis.
And I'm not talking about a few quotes in a book, or an interview on YouTube, what is needed is an academic report written by Dr. L.
Without it Edwards has nothing.

The ball is distinctly in Dr Louhelainen's court now, Edwards has nothing more to contribute.

[GUT]

Exactly! Set up a DNA database of all known desc , primary and secondary lines, of victims and suspects. Ancestry.com has an extensive DNA procurement and database system in place, surely it is not that difficult to initiate a similar model and apply to examining and adding to exisiting knowledge and known evidence to solving a series of murders in 1888. Maybe not this year, but in years to come the database will then build and build over time to maybe one day enable the case to be solved.
We have the science, now go for it!

G'day Wolfie

And Ummmm who's going to fut the bill for all this DNA testing?

[wolfie1]

G'day Wolfie

And Ummmm who's going to fut the bill for all this DNA testing?

Perhaps anyone who has profited from the misery and terror of so called legend of JTR, all the authors, tour guides, newspapers, etc et could cough up. But I know that won't happen as money comes first to most people. It will most likely take a like minded community of DNA experts, Criminologists, and a compassionate group of people who are not led primarily by their wallet and egos.

[Theagenes]

Indeed, there are a few of us who are intrigued by this DNA business.
Mr Edward's book is small potatoes without it, essentially Edwards has handed the reins to Dr Louhelainen, and Dr Louhelainen must know what is expected of him.

What we need is his report detailing what part he tested and why. Also the method employed, the equipment used, and the results in comprehensive terms. And, whether he used any control samples, or blind tests to further enhance his analysis.
And I'm not talking about a few quotes in a book, or an interview on YouTube, what is needed is an academic report written by Dr. L.
Without it Edwards has nothing.

The ball is distinctly in Dr Louhelainen's court now, Edwards has nothing more to contribute.

Couldn't agree more. In fact, Mr. Edward's "contribution" to this has probably done more harm than good by muddying the waters prematurely.

[Theagenes]

Perhaps anyone who has profited from the misery and terror of so called legend of JTR, all the authors, tour guides, newspapers, etc et could cough up. But I know that won't happen as money comes first to most people. It will most likely take a like minded community of DNA experts, Criminologists, and a compassionate group of people who are not led primarily by their wallet and egos.

Crowd funding perhaps?

But yes, before even thinking about funding, the Ripperologist community needs to embrace the very idea instead of fighting vehemently against it. That is if the goal is to actually understand the history of this event and not just to keep the JtR commercial engine chugging along forver.

[lynn cates]

unprofessional

Hello Theagenes.

". . . the DNA results that have been presented (in a completely unprofessional and sensationalist manner I might add). . . "

That is correct.

Cheers.
LC

[wolfie1]

Crowd funding perhaps?

But yes, before even thinking about funding, the Ripperologist community needs to embrace the very idea instead of fighting vehemently against it. That is if the goal is to actually understand the history of this event and not just to keep the JtR commercial engine chugging along forver.

Crown Funding is a fantastic idea, well done.
It now comes down to the science to provide actual hard verifiable evidence.
The JTR industry, and that is what is really is, has been taken over by economics and ego's. All the assumptions, scenarios, he said, she said etc.... is useless to the poor victims, the dirt poor desperate women of Whitechapel, who were terrorised, butchered and have now become a pseudo form of money making entertainment for the modern masses.
shame on all of us

[Theagenes]

Crown Funding is a fantastic idea, well done.
It now comes down to the science to provide actual hard verifiable evidence.
The JTR industry, and that is what is really is, has been taken over by economics and ego's. All the assumptions, scenarios, he said, she said etc.... is useless to the poor victims, the dirt poor desperate women of Whitechapel, who were terrorised, butchered and have now become a pseudo form of money making entertainment for the modern masses.
shame on all of us

Well, to be fair, I think interest in the murders and the work of JtR historians has done a lot to educate the public about the extreme poverty and horrible conditions on the East End in the late 19th century.

And I really don't think anyone here is consciously trying to downplay evidence just for material reasons. But often in communities like this you get a form of groupthink that becomes "conventional wisdom" in this echo chamber and any newcomer that doesn't subscribe to the local conventional wisdom is rebuffed -- that's normal, just unfortunate.

And in this case the conventional wisdom may very well be right, but there is enough here, that it at least deserves a closer look through an objective lens -- not blind dismissal.