Kosminski and Victim DNA Match on Shawl

[robhouse]

I don't remember the name of the poster. I've searched for the thread but can't find it. The poster had received the census,birth,and marriage records from Poland if I'm not mistaken.

No that was me who did that. Well, I assume that you got the info from an older article or thread. Aaron had two brothers, Isaac and Woolf, and 4 sisters, Pessa, Hinde, Malke (Matilda), and Blimbe.

RH

[Patrick S]

Yes, they paid all that attention to the apron, and where is it now?

Whereas they paid no attention to a shawl, never mentioned it, never noted it.... and suddenly here it is cracking the case?

Something doesn't add up there, either the story or real life.

You are correct. It doesn't add up. But that proves exactly nothing. If you'll induldge me, let me remember to you a story that I think applies.

About 20 years ago I was quite into collecting U.S. baseball artifacts. I had a special interest in early 20th century players: Napoleon Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Honus Wagner, Ty Cobb, et al. One day, a friend of my told me he had a golf club that had been used by Ty Cobb. He told me that Cobb had given the club to a long since deceased family member at a charity baseball game in the late 50's. As my friend was prone to tall tales, I dismissed the idea. But, not before doing some research and learning that Ty Cobb was not even at the charity game in question. I showed him the box scores, the article talking about the 'guests in attendance'. I'd found a treasure trove of information on microfilm from local papers and some published photos of the event. Still, he had his father tell me that the club was genuine. Their relative (I forget which) had gotten it from Ty Cobb himself...at that very charity game. So the family story went. They never doubted it.

To make an already too long story a bit shorter, let's jump ahead to about five years ago. A ran into a mutual friend of ours, who had been bitten by the memorabelia bug and kept it as a hobby all these years, long after I'd lost interest (for the most part). He informed me that he'd been reading an account of Cobb's golf match against Babe Ruth. He'd noticed some striking similarities in the photos of the driver used by Cobb and the one that my friend maintained was given to his family at that charity game - that Cobb didn't play in - back in the 50s. He compared photos, noted a few common traits, etc. Taking a chance, he bought the thing for a comparatively low price, before taking the effort to have it authenticated. Eventually, it was established that it was part of a set Cobb purchased specifically for that event in 1941. Cobb, infurated after a poor round at Augusta National one day a few years after the match, broke several of the clubs and bestowed the set to his caddie at the end of the round. Eventually, the driver was matched to a few others in the set and the original bill of sale was recovered. He'd purchased the clubs through a pro at Augusta, was fitted for them, and played with them until about 1946, when they met their ignominious end.

My point is this: Myself and several other collectors/"experts" told my friend he was in posession of a worthless old golf club for twenty years. The story made no sense, was clearly not true, and was likely a lie invented by his relative to give a colorful backstory to an old club he'd probably picked up at an estate sale, or found next a to a tee box on some public course in Bumville, Alabama. Problem is, the story turned out to be a fabrication, misunderstanding, misrememberance, lie...whatever. But the club turned out to be quite genuine...and valuable.

Am I saying this shawl is real? Hell. No. I'm saying the 'backstory' of this thing may not matter all the much in the end and may - in fact - prove to be a lie, misuremeberance, whatever...without that meaning the shawl is a fraud. Patience will likely be rewarded. Thus, I'm trying to remain open to the idea. Skeptical, yeah. But, nothing much would surprise me.

[Patrick S]

No that was me who did that. Well, I assume that you got the info from an older article or thread. Aaron had two brothers, Isaac and Woolf, and 4 sisters, Pessa, Hinde, Malke (Matilda), and Blimbe.

RH

Rob,

I bought your book last night. Just getting into it. Quite enjoyable thus far. Looking forward to reading it this weekend.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff. Thanks.

"Agreed. She probably died some time after her throat was cut. What we don't know is if she had become unconscious sometime before hand, possibly regain consciousness of moments."

Then she walked into the yard, turned around 180, then was sliced?

Or was dragged into the yard along the damp cobbles?

"Why not? Have you tested it. Surely a folded piece of silk material would make an ideal garrotte leaving few marks." Jeff, it would be altogether unwieldy. But don't take MY word for it. Cut a piece of cloth with similar dimensions. Now get a friend to help. (Be careful!)

I don't have an 8 foot and 2 foot silk piece of material to hand. But It should fold and twist be very light and very strong

See what I mean? And Polly and Annie DID have marks. So IF it were used, clearly it was NOT so with them.

Well Chapman was attacked from the front and her face ruddy.

Stride was pale as if she had fainted

Conclusion? Well Jack changed his MO considerably from one victim to the next as serial killers often do. Claiming they were killed by different people is simply muddled thinking not understanding the rarity of such killers.

"I don't see why. Current claims seem to be it would fit easily into a pocket."

Take that SAME piece of cloth and try fitting it into your pocket. See what I mean? And are we to assume that Aaron had Kate hold on until he took it from his pocket and unfolded it several times?

Cheers.

LC[/QUOTE]

No I'd presume he had it already twisted and waiting to do the job… But weather he took it dropped it or left it as a clue I have know idea…We only know it appears to have Eddows blood on it..

None of which makes much sense, which is why where trying to figure out what it all means

Yours Jeff

[SJ76]

From what I read Kozminski was a mentally ill man who "had not attempted work for years and had access to various residences at night" and was admitted to different workhouses and asylums, and admitted from different addresses. I get the sense he was cared for collectively by his family, each household only being able to tolerate him for a certain amount of time and then it was the next siblings turn. I think the buildings he had access to are their homes or store fronts and I think he was used to coming and going from these households (with or without their blessing) as he pleased, as they possibly pitied him, were fearful, and were used to him doing strange things. Some of the trades associated with this family are butchering, tailors, and shoemaker. I think the silk runner may have been something he took/or was given from one of the families that were tailors. I think the exposure to butchering and possible participation speaks for itself.

My point is that given his families occupations I think he had access to their storefronts and homes. took the runner to pawn, or gift to a prostitute, or simply to kneel down on as he mutilated the body. I think it had blood on it so he left it, then cut a piece of apron to clean his hands, he had cut her colon and had fecal matter on his hands more then likely.

As for the policeman, the runner is basically an 8 foot bolt of silk. I think he could of folded it up and took it, and later told his family he had been given permission.

Kosminski seems plausible to me based on the facts that he had multiple family members living in the vicinity of the murders, was known to be mentally ill and was probably not scrutinized for his behavior, at first, as much as a sane person would be. keeping late hours and arriving unannounced in the middle of the night.

Eventually his family realizes or suspects its him as there are murders near there homes when hes around and have him committed multiple times. the last straw being him threatening his sister with a knife. I wander if he was killing his sister's symbolically all along as well as leaving bodies at there proverbial doorstep. I think his family did not turn him in out of fear of reprisal,some supposedly changing their last names after he was committed, possibly to protect themselves if the case were ever solved. and had him committed to stop the carnage.

[Robert]

The name "Abrahams" was used as an alternative to "Kosminski" before his committal.

[Henry Flower]

Patrick it's a nice story, and the point it makes is one that I've been arguing as well - that verified and definite DNA matches to Kosminski and Eddowes would render Amos Simpson, the entire Simpson family history, Mr Edwards - and every contemporary document that failed to mention a shawl - largely moot.

But we're a long way off being able to say we have that. One day we might. Possibly we might never. It could all be a colossal mistake or an outright con as far as we know. Or it might just be true.

Open mind.

[Henry Flower]

I'm off to the countryside for the weekend with the wife and daughter, everyone have a lovely weekend and try not to kill each other over this relatively unimportant matter!

[Patrick S]

Patrick it's a nice story, and the point it makes is one that I've been arguing as well - that verified and definite DNA matches to Kosminski and Eddowes would render Amos Simpson, the entire Simpson family history, Mr Edwards - and every contemporary document that failed to mention a shawl - largely moot.

But we're a long way off being able to say we have that. One day we might. Possibly we might never. It could all be a colossal mistake or an outright con as far as we know. Or it might just be true.

Open mind.

Agreed. We are of the same mind. I probably confused your take in things with one of the other 500 posters and 2,000 posts!

[curious4]

Hello Gwyneth.

"She'd have got me - although I think I'd give the White Satin a miss"

Well, don't tell Justin Hayward that! (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Was going to say something about what is said to be the result of both solitary vices and home-made hooch, but thought the better of it.

Best wishes,

Gwyneth

[curious4]

Brothers

I listened to the pod-cast on the BBC and thought I heard them say that if any one of Kosminski`s brothers had so much as breathed on the shawl, they would have got exactly the same dna result.

Also re-read John Eddleston´s argument (from Jack the Ripper An Encyclopedia) as to why Kosminski was a non-starter and completely agree.

Best wishes
C4

[SJ76]

If AK was the killer and didn't work, it's interesting that all the murders were done on weekends and one on a bank holiday. wandering if that is reflective of his family members schedule and allowing him to take the organs somewhere..his family's storefronts?

[anna]

Just out of interest...

OK everyone..Having trawled through my JTR books,once I located them all in my bookcase..I have found the picture of Andy and Sue Parlour and the shawl's present owner at the time the book was written in 1998,and they are holding up the shawl in front of them.All three have their hands on the shawl,without gloves....in fact Sue Parlour is in the middle,and has both hands holding up the shawl.I don't have a scanner,so I can't show the picture here.
It's location is in Pamela Ball's book..Jack The Ripper..A psychic Investigation.
The chapter is :Silent Witness....and the picture is opposite page 145.
The shawl's present owner of the time,has white hair and a white beard.
There is a whole section on the Shawl...just the usual stuff about dousing etc..then she comes to talk about Amos Simpson,saying more or less what we know..says shawl was kept in an old sea chest. Pieces have been cut off,presumably parts that were stained with blood. Says the shawl is not mentioned in any police reports,but matches post mortem report as being of tiny flowered patterns containing the colours blue,pink,green,yellow and maroon....( no mention of any white flowers.) Pamela Ball said it was curious that it wasn't pawned and it's good condition.
I saw the post to Monty where it is explained to him that the Parlour's DNA wouldn't have remained on the shawl...but just thought it was interesting to find the picture,and the section on what is said about the shawl.

[Gene Lewis]

…and they are holding up the shawl in front of them.All three have their hands on the shawl,without gloves....

The question now is : WHO didn't touch the shawl without gloves for 126 years ???

[Chris]

You open up the topic when you made the claim that it is impossible for DNA to change over the course of a few generations. That was an error which needed to be amended.

Of course I said no such thing. I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat this. What I said was that "to an extremely high probability" there had been no mutation in the short number of generations we are dealing with:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=308036&postcount=1679

And apparently you agree with that.