Continuation of “Possibility for the Seaside Home”

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Why does being semi drunk, as you put it exclude a suspect.
I believe it was Reid who said he believed the killer frequented local pubs and drank.

In addition of all the known Witnesses only Schwartz witnesses a woman actually being attacked.


My reasons for going with Schwartz are well documented in the podcasts section of this site. Why not listen to it?

Nine reasons for eliminating Kosminski as the suspect seen by Schwarz:


(1) The suspect was about seven years older than Kosminski

(2) Kosminski, as a religious Jew, would not have frequented pubs

(3) It is and was well-known that cases of Jews displaying drunkenness in public were unheard-of

(4) The exclamation 'Lipski' made by the suspect was, as noted by Abberline, an anti-Jewish insult, and it is unthinkable that Jews would have directed it at one another

(5) The exclamation was indeed directed at Schwarz, a fact which Schwarz himself confirmed in his inquest testimony

(6) It is therefore reasonable to conclude - as Abberline did - that the remark was made on account of Schwarz's Jewish appearance

(7) The suspect was broad-shouldered, whereas Kosminski was thin

(8) Schwarz did not say that the suspect was a foreigner.

He could reasonably have been expected to tell the difference between a native and an immigrant.

There is a difference between the way a British person would have pronounced 'Lipski' and the way a Polish person would have pronounced it - specifically the way in which the two 'i's would have been pronounced.

Being from Eastern Europe himself, Schwarz would have been aware of that.


(9) Religious Jews did not associate with prostitutes in Whitechapel

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I am disputing that it is a fact that it was meant as an insult. That is unknown.

I am disputing that it is a fact that it was shouted at Schwarz. That is unknown.


The reason for that is that the police at the time stated as a possibility that it was shouted at the other man present (Pipeman), and might have been a name, nickname or similar, and Schwartz himself was uncertain whether it had been shouted at him or not
(my bolding)

And of course one might dispute whether it was really "well-known", since the significance had to be explained in the police correspondance, a sure sign that the receiver could not be expected to know about it. But certainly well-known in the East End.

Are you not aware of the reports that the police traced the pipe man?

They must therefore have established that he wasn't Jewish, because if they had done so, that would then have meant that they would have had a reason to suspect that the insult was directed at him.

But there is no record of his being found to be Jewish.

Instead, there is a record that Kosminski testified that the insult was directed at him.

[Pontius2000]

Nine reasons for eliminating Kosminski as the suspect seen by Schwarz:


(1) The suspect was about seven years older than Kosminski

What are the common visual differences between a 23 year old and a 30 year old? I mean, most people can differentiate a 23 year old from a 50, 60, or 70 year old. But how does one accurately differentiate between a 23 and 30 year old?

(2) Kosminski, as a religious Jew, would not have frequented pubs

it’s interesting that you take his refusal to pay a fine on the sabbath as him being a “religious Jew” yet from the exact same court proceeding you don’t accept him answering in English to questions asked in English as proof that he could speak English. This is a classic example of attempting to twist tidbits in order to fit a specific narrative.

(3) It is and was well-known that cases of Jews displaying drunkenness in public were unheard-of

what? It’s unheard of? So there are no instances of Jews displaying drunkenness? How about Polish Jews killing women in Victorian era London, was that unheard of as well?

(4) The exclamation 'Lipski' made by the suspect was, as noted by Abberline, an anti-Jewish insult, and it is unthinkable that Jews would have directed it at one another

it’s not unthinkable. Abberline didn’t hear the remark or context, Israel Schwartz did. And Schwartz could barely speak English and could not say who the comment was directed at.

(5) The exclamation was indeed directed at Schwarz, a fact which Schwarz himself confirmed in his inquest testimony

he did? When was this?

(6) It is therefore reasonable to conclude - as Abberline did - that the remark was made on account of Schwarz's Jewish appearance

maybe it is, or it isn’t. We don’t know the context of the statement or who it was directed at, so no, we don’t know. I will at least give you that it’s “reasonable”, since it’s one of two options.

(7) The suspect was broad-shouldered, whereas Kosminski was thin

we know that Kosminski gradually wasted away after he was incarcerated (over the course of nearly 30 years of course). We can probably safely assume he was not obese in 1888, and probably not “fat” either. But being “broad shouldered” would not exclude one from being “thin” either,

(8) Schwarz did not say that the suspect was a foreigner.

he didn’t say the suspect was an Englishman either. He said he had a fair complexion with dark hair and a dark mustache. For all we know, considering JtR killed 2 women within an hour from each other, and both outside or near Jewish mens’ clubs, Schwartz may well have assumed that both he and the police understood that the suspect was Jewish.

There is a difference between the way a British person would have pronounced 'Lipski' and the way a Polish person would have pronounced it - specifically the way in which the two 'i's would have been pronounced.

Being from Eastern Europe himself, Schwarz would have been aware of that.

Schwartz was a relative newcomer to London who could barely speak English, now you’ve got him differentiating the pronunciations of a native Englishman and a Polish born Jew who’d lived in England for 6 years based on one word that he heard in a split stressful second ?

(9) Religious Jews did not associate with prostitutes in Whitechapel

Jews aren’t generally known to be lunatics either, yet I can name numerous Jewish lunatics from this very case. Religious Christian ministers don’t associate with prostitutes either, yet I offer up Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker as proof to the contrary. And while I can’t provide his synagogue attendance records as proof of how religious he was, Jacob Levy was a Jew who certainly associated with prostitutes in Whitechapel.

The point here being: you’ve somehow taken Kosminski not wanting to pay a fine on the sabbath as him being religious (when it just as easily could’ve been him not wanting to pay the fine at all) when the fact is, you have no earthly idea what a mentally ill Jewish person left to his own devices would or would not have done or who they would’ve associated with.

[Pontius2000]

Are you not aware of the reports that the police traced the pipe man?

I can’t answer for the other poster, but I’m not aware of this. Who was pipe man?

Instead, there is a record that Kosminski testified that the insult was directed at him.

I know you meant Schwartz and not Kosminski. Now, where is this testimony that you’re referring to?

[Darryl Kenyon]

Are you not aware of the reports that the police traced the pipe man?

What evidence is there for this please ? I thought this was supposition mainly down to the Star's report of Oct 2 - They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source.

That other source could be Pc Smith for instance. Not only that but the inquest did not finish until Oct 23 . we can argue all we want why Schwartz wasn't at the inquest , but no pipeman as well ? Surely if he was traced wouldn't he have appeared ?

Also Anderson in a letter dated Nov 5 makes mention of the word Lipski and their conclusions and evidence given by Schwartz. But no mention of Pipeman giving any evidence or being interviewed at all.

Regards Darryl

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

What evidence is there for this please ? I thought this was supposition mainly down to the Star's report of Oct 2 - They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source.

That other source could be Pc Smith for instance. Not only that but the inquest did not finish until Oct 23 . we can argue all we want why Schwartz wasn't at the inquest , but no pipeman as well ? Surely if he was traced wouldn't he have appeared ?

Also Anderson in a letter dated Nov 5 makes mention of the word Lipski and their conclusions and evidence given by Schwartz. But no mention of Pipeman giving any evidence or being interviewed at all.

Regards Darryl

I have read that letter by Anderson and have alluded to it previously.

I will have to look for the sources of the Pipe Man being traced.

I think there were two.

[Paddy]

I have mentioned this before and it is only a theory. When Schwartz heard the man call Lipski could he have been hearing the polish translation of Nosey ( meaning possibly what are you looking at) which is wścibski. If he was Hungarian he may not have understood this. If one looks on Google translate English-Polish you can actually listen to the word in Polish. Its very similar to Lipski and could point to the man being Polish.......Theory...

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

What are the common visual differences between a 23 year old and a 30 year old? I mean, most people can differentiate a 23 year old from a 50, 60, or 70 year old. But how does one accurately differentiate between a 23 and 30 year old?



it’s interesting that you take his refusal to pay a fine on the sabbath as him being a “religious Jew” yet from the exact same court proceeding you don’t accept him answering in English to questions asked in English as proof that he could speak English. This is a classic example of attempting to twist tidbits in order to fit a specific narrative.



what? It’s unheard of? So there are no instances of Jews displaying drunkenness? How about Polish Jews killing women in Victorian era London, was that unheard of as well?




it’s not unthinkable. Abberline didn’t hear the remark or context, Israel Schwartz did. And Schwartz could barely speak English and could not say who the comment was directed at.



he did? When was this?



maybe it is, or it isn’t. We don’t know the context of the statement or who it was directed at, so no, we don’t know. I will at least give you that it’s “reasonable”, since it’s one of two options.



we know that Kosminski gradually wasted away after he was incarcerated (over the course of nearly 30 years of course). We can probably safely assume he was not obese in 1888, and probably not “fat” either. But being “broad shouldered” would not exclude one from being “thin” either,




he didn’t say the suspect was an Englishman either. He said he had a fair complexion with dark hair and a dark mustache. For all we know, considering JtR killed 2 women within an hour from each other, and both outside or near Jewish mens’ clubs, Schwartz may well have assumed that both he and the police understood that the suspect was Jewish.




Schwartz was a relative newcomer to London who could barely speak English, now you’ve got him differentiating the pronunciations of a native Englishman and a Polish born Jew who’d lived in England for 6 years based on one word that he heard in a split stressful second ?



Jews aren’t generally known to be lunatics either, yet I can name numerous Jewish lunatics from this very case. Religious Christian ministers don’t associate with prostitutes either, yet I offer up Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker as proof to the contrary. And while I can’t provide his synagogue attendance records as proof of how religious he was, Jacob Levy was a Jew who certainly associated with prostitutes in Whitechapel.

The point here being: you’ve somehow taken Kosminski not wanting to pay a fine on the sabbath as him being religious (when it just as easily could’ve been him not wanting to pay the fine at all) when the fact is, you have no earthly idea what a mentally ill Jewish person left to his own devices would or would not have done or who they would’ve associated with.

What are the common visual differences between a 23 year old and a 30 year old? I mean, most people can differentiate a 23 year old from a 50, 60, or 70 year old. But how does one accurately differentiate between a 23 and 30 year old?



I think witnesses can generally tell the difference between a 23-year-old and a 30-year-old.

Where there is such a big age difference, it should not be treated with scepticism in order to accommodate a named suspect.

I had an exchange with an anti-Kosminski poster on another forum, who claimed that in a picture of 'Kosminski' - with dark hair - Kosminski looked much older than 23 and easily looked 30.

When I pointed out that no-one knows exactly what Kosminski looked like, he argued that in the lighting, a 23-year-old could easily look 30.

When I was exchanging views with anti-Lechmere Holmgren, on the other hand, he argued that 39-year-old Lechmere could easily have looked 30!

The evidence is that the suspects seen by Schwarz and Lawende were aged about 30.

That suggests that neither suspect was Kosminski.




it’s interesting that you take his refusal to pay a fine on the sabbath as him being a “religious Jew” yet from the exact same court proceeding you don’t accept him answering in English to questions asked in English as proof that he could speak English. This is a classic example of attempting to twist tidbits in order to fit a specific narrative.



The court transcript does not mention that his answers were given through an interpreter. The question is: if they were given through an interpreter, would the court record mention that?

Unless we have a definite answer to this question, we cannot know that the answers he gave were given by him in English.

Most Jews in Whitechapel were religious, so my deduction that he was a religious Jew is not exactly controversial.

What would have been the point of refusing to pay a fine on the Sabbath other than a religious one?

It isn't as though he could refuse indefinitely.




what? It’s unheard of? So there are no instances of Jews displaying drunkenness? How about Polish Jews killing women in Victorian era London, was that unheard of as well?



That's right.

It was well-known that public displays of drunkenness by Jews in the East End of London were unheard of.

And it was noted by a leading detective in the Whitechapel Murders case.

I have never heard of any Polish Jew being identified as a murderer of gentile women in Victorian London.




it’s not unthinkable [that Jews would have directed 'Lipski' at one another].




It is unthinkable that Jews would shout an anti-Jewish insult at one another.

Why don't you try asking one?

Do you imagine that when the Nazis called Jews 'Jewish swine' that Jews were using the insult against one another?

I'm stating facts.

What you're stating is far-fetched.




Abberline didn’t hear the remark or context, Israel Schwartz did.



You refer to the context of the remark - 'Lipski'.

There was no context, other than the fact that since the previous year, it had become a way of insulting Jews in Whitechapel.

If you mean that other words were said, they weren't.

It was a one-word insult and that is how Schwarz reported it.




And Schwartz could barely speak English and could not say who the comment was directed at.



Schwarz didn't need to be able to speak English in order to recognise a Polish name which was used as an insult by some English people.

Schwarz testified at the inquest that the insult was directed at him.




Schwartz was a relative newcomer to London who could barely speak English, now you’ve got him differentiating the pronunciations of a native Englishman and a Polish born Jew who’d lived in England for 6 years based on one word that he heard in a split stressful second ?



That's right.

The fact that a Polish-born Jew had lived in England for six years wouldn't automatically have changed the way he pronounced 'Lipski'.

He wouldn't have been speaking with a London accent.

Schwarz would have realised instantly that the man was a native gentile and not a Polish Jew.

It would have taken longer for a gentile Londoner to shout 'Lipski!' than a Pole - and it would have taken about one second, not a split second, as you claim.




we know that Kosminski gradually wasted away after he was incarcerated (over the course of nearly 30 years of course). We can probably safely assume he was not obese in 1888, and probably not “fat” either. But being “broad shouldered” would not exclude one from being “thin” either,



The evidence is that the man was about 30 years old, broad-shouldered, semi-drunk, and anti-Semitic.

You are suggesting he could have been a 23-year-old, thin, Polish Jew.


That is not credible.




Schwartz may well have assumed that both he and the police understood that the suspect was Jewish.




Schwarz may not 'well' have assumed that the suspect was Jewish.

Your use of the word 'well' is obviously not justified.

The evidence is that Schwarz described a drunken anti-Semite.

If he had thought the suspect was Jewish, then he couldn't have been Anderson and Swanson's witness - because their witness would not incriminate a fellow Jew!





you have no earthly idea what a mentally ill Jewish person left to his own devices would or would not have done or who they would’ve associated with.




Where is the evidence that Kosminski had a great hatred of prostitutes, other than MacNaghten, who thought Druitt was a doctor (he was a lawyer) who had died about three weeks earlier than he had, that Ostrog was a homicidal maniac (he was a fraudster) who could have been in London (he was in Paris) and Kosminski had gone mad from masturbating?

There isn't even any evidence that Kosminski ever associated with prostitutes, and it's very unlikely because, as I said, the vast majority of Jews in the East End were religious and they didn't associate with prostitutes.

And that's a fact.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I have mentioned this before and it is only a theory. When Schwartz heard the man call Lipski could he have been hearing the polish translation of Nosey ( meaning possibly what are you looking at) which is wścibski. If he was Hungarian he may not have understood this. If one looks on Google translate English-Polish you can actually listen to the word in Polish. Its very similar to Lipski and could point to the man being Polish.......Theory...

I don't think so, because the word you suggest has three consecutive consonants at the beginning of it, whereas Lipski has only one.


Israel Schwartz was Polish.


Though he was described at the time as being from Hungary, 1891 census entries show him as being Polish and of Jewish descent.<sup>[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Schwartz

I do remember reading this a long time ago, but have only just realised the full significance of it.

Both Schwartz and Lawende were Polish Jews - and so was Kosminski.

We are being asked to believe that neither of them could recognise Kosminski as a fellow Polish Jew until they met him at the Seaside Home.
We are being asked to believe that Schwartz didn't recognise a Polish name shouted at him by a fellow Polish native as having been pronounced the Polish way.

Hogwash.</sup>

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I can’t answer for the other poster, but I’m not aware of this. Who was pipe man?




I know you meant Schwartz and not Kosminski. Now, where is this testimony that you’re referring to?

We don't have the actual record of his verbatim testimony, but we do have a record that he testified that the insult was directed at him.

[Pontius2000]

We don't have the actual record of his verbatim testimony, but we do have a record that he testified that the insult was directed at him.

Where is this testimony?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Where is this testimony?

The draft of a letter written by Anderson, and an actual letter sent by Sir Charles Warren.

[Pontius2000]

What are the common visual differences between a 23 year old and a 30 year old? I mean, most people can differentiate a 23 year old from a 50, 60, or 70 year old. But how does one accurately differentiate between a 23 and 30 year old?



I think witnesses can generally tell the difference between a 23-year-old and a 30-year-old.
Where there is such a big age difference, it should not be treated with scepticism in order to accommodate a named suspect.
I had an exchange with an anti-Kosminski poster on another forum, who claimed that in a picture of 'Kosminski' - with dark hair - Kosminski looked much older than 23 and easily looked 30.
When I pointed out that no-one knows exactly what Kosminski looked like, he argued that in the lighting, a 23-year-old could easily look 30.
When I was exchanging views with anti-Lechmere Holmgren, on the other hand, he argued that 39-year-old Lechmere could easily have looked 30!
The evidence is that the suspects seen by Schwarz and Lawende were aged about 30.
That suggests that neither suspect was Kosminski.

Since I asked you what were the visual differences between a 23 and 30 year old and you named none, I’ll assume that you agree that unless there is something unusual- such as early graying or early balding- there really are no discernible differences visually between a 23 and 30 year old.

The court transcript does not mention that his answers were given through an interpreter. The question is: if they were given through an interpreter, would the court record mention that?

Unless we have a definite answer to this question, we cannot know that the answers he gave were given by him in English.

the court transcript says he was asked and he answered. The judge didn’t ask in Yiddish and nothing was said about an interpreter. Further, in his admittance papers to one of the asylums, it had “education: reading and writing”. This would’ve meant English. You’ve spent 19 pages of this thread trying to pass your opinions off as established fact, yet you refuse to admit every shred of evidence points to him understanding and speaking English. You just won’t admit it because it doesn’t align with your Kosminski “couldn’t have possibly been the killer” narrative.

Most Jews in Whitechapel were religious, so my deduction that he was a religious Jew is not exactly controversial.
What would have been the point of refusing to pay a fine on the Sabbath other than a religious one?
It isn't as though he could refuse indefinitely.

Most Jews had Jewish beliefs just as most Americans and Brits have Christian beliefs. That does not mean every Jew was a hardcore practicing Jew any more than everyone who claims Christian beliefs is a hardcore practicing Christian. If he didn’t have the money or simply didn’t want to pay, he could’ve easily used the sabbath excuse. You are taking one tiny tidbit and trying to stretch it into him being the second coming of Moses who could never possibly commit any sin (even if it were actually his established mental illness causing him to commit the sin) because of his steadfast religious beliefs. Again, you’re grasping at straws to make something fit into the narrative you’re trying to present.

and I’m not even saying he wasn’t raised to be religious, he most likely was. It’s just ridiculous to even suggest that a religious belief is going to override a severe mental illness driving a person to do things that no normal person would.

what? It’s unheard of? So there are no instances of Jews displaying drunkenness? How about Polish Jews killing women in Victorian era London, was that unheard of as well?



That's right.

It was well-known that public displays of drunkenness by Jews in the East End of London were unheard of.

And it was noted by a leading detective in the Whitechapel Murders case.

I have never heard of any Polish Jew being identified as a murderer of gentile women in Victorian London.

lol. No drunkenness amongst Jews in the East End. So all those pubs and all those “Jewish mens’ clubs” that two prostitutes happened to be murdered outside of on the same night, but no drunkenness. I’d wonder how you propose that Jacob Levy got syphilis. Would you guess that he was a morally upstanding and sober person who got syphilis from sitting on the wrong toilet seat? He was an East End Jew after all, so theres no possible way that he was out getting drunk and having sex with prostitutes.

It is unthinkable that Jews would shout an anti-Jewish insult at one another.
Why don't you try asking one?
Do you imagine that when the Nazis called Jews 'Jewish swine' that Jews were using the insult against one another?
I'm stating facts.
What you're stating is far-fetched.

by your logic, I guess many black people don’t call each other a certain anti-black racial slur either do they? See every single rap album from the past 30 years as proof to the contrary.

you’d like me to ask an 1888 Jewish resident of the East End? I’d love to if you can produce one.

You refer to the context of the remark - 'Lipski'.

There was no context, other than the fact that since the previous year, it had become a way of insulting Jews in Whitechapel.

If you mean that other words were said, they weren't.

It was a one-word insult and that is how Schwarz reported it.

”If you mean that other words were said, they weren’t.” there you go again with the old passing your opinion off as fact. You weren’t there and have no clue what was said. There may have been one word, or more context, which of course the witness himself would not have known because it is established that he could barely speak any English.

Schwarz didn't need to be able to speak English in order to recognise a Polish name which was used as an insult by some English people.

Schwarz testified at the inquest that the insult was directed at him.

Do you have a link to the inquest testimony where he said this?

That's right.

The fact that a Polish-born Jew had lived in England for six years wouldn't automatically have changed the way he pronounced 'Lipski'.

He wouldn't have been speaking with a London accent.

Schwarz would have realised instantly that the man was a native gentile and not a Polish Jew.

It would have taken longer for a gentile Londoner to shout 'Lipski!' than a Pole - and it would have taken about one second, not a split second, as you claim.

I can’t even guess how you’d come to such a conclusion. A Hungarian who could speak almost no English would be able to differentiate the difference between a British and Polish accent based on hearing a single word in a split second under stress. That makes no logical sense.

The evidence is that the man was about 30 years old, broad-shouldered, semi-drunk, and anti-Semitic.

You are suggesting he could have been a 23-year-old, thin, Polish Jew.

That is not credible.

The evidence is:
-there’s no obvious visual difference between most 23 and 30 year olds.
-most people base being “thin” or “stout” on size of chest, stomach, and hips and that “broad-shouldered” would not exclude someone from being thin anymore than “muscular calves” would.
-contrary what you’re trying to bend to fit your narrative, Jews are indeed capable of drinking alcohol, they are capable of being drunk, and even alcoholics. Some of them are capable of having mental illness, and some of them are even capable of murdering women.
-maybe “Lipski” was indeed used as a slur and maybe it wasn’t. We can’t know because the one who heard it could barely speak English. you of course take Abberline at his opinion of it, while ignoring Swanson’s opinion of it. We could debate which is more credible, but that’s a different argument.

Schwarz may not 'well' have assumed that the suspect was Jewish.

Your use of the word 'well' is obviously not justified.

The evidence is that Schwarz described a drunken anti-Semite.

If he had thought the suspect was Jewish, then he couldn't have been Anderson and Swanson's witness - because their witness would not incriminate a fellow Jew!

I doubt very much that Schwartz was the seaside home witness. You doubt it too, but you’ve sure spent a lot of space arguing it. But anyone of these witnesses COULD have assumed that the suspect was Jewish and not had it absolutely confirmed until the seaside home.

Where is the evidence that Kosminski had a great hatred of prostitutes, other than MacNaghten, who thought Druitt was a doctor (he was a lawyer) who had died about three weeks earlier than he had, that Ostrog was a homicidal maniac (he was a fraudster) who could have been in London (he was in Paris) and Kosminski had gone mad from masturbating?

There isn't even any evidence that Kosminski ever associated with prostitutes, and it's very unlikely because, as I said, the vast majority of Jews in the East End were religious and they didn't associate with prostitutes.

I didn’t say the first thing about “a great hatred of prostitutes”. I would need more evidence to form my own opinion of that. Since the vast majority of the Scotland Yard WM file- including all or almost all of the suspect files- are now missing, I have no reason to assume that all these respected police officials were lying or that such evidence did not once exist. You however seem to be under the impression that because the files were pilfered and stolen, that means the evidence never existed at all and these officials were lying. That sir, is what is “not credible”.

my response was to your statement that Kosminski did not associate with prostitutes. You have no idea whether or not he associated with prostitutes. And if a person were extremely sick and had uncontrollable fantasies of butchering women, their religious beliefs wouldn’t come into it anyway. A sick person is a sick person, no matter how religious they were raised to be.

[Pontius2000]

The draft of a letter written by Anderson, and an actual letter sent by Sir Charles Warren.

I believe you are confusing someone who was interviewed on the SUSPICION of being pipe man with someone being proven to have been pipe man.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I believe you are confusing someone who was interviewed on the SUSPICION of being pipe man with someone being proven to have been pipe man.

I believe you have accidentally quoted the a statement made by me relating to something else.