Is Kosminski the man really viable?

[Bridewell]

In answer to post 310." Kosminski was the suspect' is a statement and/or a claim.

Indeed it is. A statement by Chief Inspector Donald Sutherland Swanson, a man better placed than anyone to know who was or was not suspected.

Doesn't matter whether it was Anderson or Joe Blow around the corner who made it,

It does matter. Swanson was in a position to know. Joe Blow wouldn't be.

Fairness requires that the reason he was suspect be given.

Why does fairness require this? Swanson was writing a pencil note in his copy of a book. It's frustrating that he doesn't provide this information, but it's not 'unfair'.

Now someone tell me what the reason was,because neither Anderson or Swanson does.

How is that possible? Neither man gives their reasons why this man was a suspect. The fact remains that, for whatever reason, he was a suspect.
I

n addition the evidence should be reasonable.

Of course it should, but we don't know what that evidence was.

As it stands,some people accept without question.I don't,and I do not wish posters to say that I should.

No-one is telling you what to accept. Swanson says that Kosminski was Anderson's suspect. That is a fact. Whether or not you choose to accept that fact is entirely a matter for you.

Anderson and Swanson were as liable to be stating untruths as the next man

You think Swanson likely to be 'stating untruths' in a private note to himself? On what basis?

,and I am not swayed by any arguement to the contrary.

You don't have to be, any more than I have to be swayed by your imputation that Anderson and Swanson are likely to have been lying.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Tom_Wescott]

Just in following Rob's post, the closest a big group like that could get to the Great Synagogue was Mitre Square, so they'd often end up there in protest.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

For Pat and those who haven't seen it

Here's one flyer from the group. I'll upload the other one later once I can change the dimensions. The other one is most interesting because it mentions Goulston Street. Gotta get off to work now.

[Paddy]

Yep Yep Yep !!! I would love a copy of your book Rob ! Thank you

I have a collection of Ripper books that I have picked up from garage sales or thrift stores. I also brought Evans and Skinners Sourcebook and have one donated by a friend.
Would you sign it for me? so I can show off?

Regarding Abrahams article. You are right, it is open to question still
I did look for more articles, I am sure I found one other, but it only repeated similar to what we've seen. While looking for AK, I did get drawn in to this violent side of his environment. I do feel he would have been drawn in too...
Maybe they are The Juwes ??

Out of interest..
coincidences........
If the Michals is the Polish one from Brunswick Buildings born Poland
There are a family of Michalowhatevers in Kolo that are children of a Lachmann mother Something like Fradja not Ryfka. (the family name of Jacob Cohens mum was Lachmann) First names dont fit well though and it is probably not the same family.
Just shows you how many coincidences abound......I love them !

[Paddy]

Could the police at that time have practiced disinformation? Anderson was more politically minded, could he have justified this by political motives?

From Wikipedia..............
Disinformation is intentionally false or inaccurate information that is spread deliberately. For this reason, it is synonymous with and sometimes called black propaganda. It is an act of deception and false statements to convince someone of untruth. Disinformation should not be confused with misinformation, information that is unintentionally false.

Unlike traditional propaganda techniques designed to engage emotional support, disinformation is designed to manipulate the audience at the rational level by either discrediting conflicting information or supporting false conclusions. A common disinformation tactic is to mix some truth and observation with false conclusions and lies, or to reveal part of the truth while presenting it as the whole (a limited hangout).

[Paddy]

WIKI: A common disinformation tactic is to mix some truth and observation with false conclusions and lies, or to reveal part of the truth while presenting it as the whole (a limited hangout).

I have seen this practiced much in the Whitechapel Murders Investigation, between press and police reports. Where cases seemed to be mixed together, to confuse.
If the above is the tactic was used by Anderson and Swanson we could read it as follows...

We have a suspect. we know he is guilty, he is dead.

If the "he is dead" bit is false, then the former is true
If the "he is dead" bit is true then the we know his guilt is suspect...

But if its Aaron Kosminski, He didnt die...

[robhouse]

Hi Pat,

Yes, I do believe Anderson could have disseminated disinformation about the Ripper. I have collected a number of very curious press reports where the source is often an official in Scotland Yard... I can't possibly go into this fully, as it is quite complicated, but in my opinion, yes... disinformation might well have happened.

I would be happy to send you a signed copy... just send me a private message with your mailing address.

Yes, I am very interested also in learning more about the environment Aaron lived in here... this article you have posted is very interesting. The reference to a "gang" is intriguing. I am also interested in finding out more about the area around Providence Street and Brunswick St... whether there were brothels in this area in 1888.

Also, it seems I was thinking just now... you know, it seems quite probably that Aaron went by the name Abrahams more frequently than by the name Kozminski. The name Kozminski comes from his workhouse/asylum records of course. But it seems that Woolf went by the name Abrahams almost exclusively. With the exception of the asylum records where he is listed as Kosminski. I think the same might have applied to Aaron. So this "Abrahams" referred to in the newspaper article you posted is very intriguing indeed.

And yes, about "the Juwes"... It is interesting to note that an immigrant Jew like Kozminski would have perceived that his people were being "blamed" in London for various things... lowered wages in the sweated trades for instance. The Jews were also blamed in Russia, when Aaron grew up there, for various social ills, and they were wrongly scapegoated as having been behind the assassination of the Tsar, which led to the pogroms that caused so many Jews to flee Russia, etc. This is also covered quite extensively in the book.

As I point out, an immigrant Jew in London at the time might have protested about the Jews "being blamed for nothing"... ie. for no reason, or unjustly.

Rob

[Paddy]

Tom thanks
The poster is very interesting. I wonder if Israel Lipsky belonged to the Stickmakers mentioned, being himself a stickmaker?
As he was fairly new to the country I can see how he would have become drawn to these types of social groups.... As probably did most young men.

Seeing as Aaron Kosminski hadnt worked for 6 years (On Aarons addmission to the workhouse and Asylum records) its ironic they are mostly working mens clubs

If Aaron did get involved, it would be very interesting to know what they were discussing at that time. Maybe the whole socialist influence triggered his illness.
I have read about a lot of the smaller raids (ie the mr Sugar who ran a small establishment in Fieldgate street). They mostly involved booze and gamling for money. I must find this source and post it.

The East End sounds like Chicago in the 30s. I wonder who thier version of Al Capone was? Mind you London was full of such when I was growing up. I do really beilieve one has to dig into Aarons environment to understand him more. He was vulnerable.

[curious]

Also, it seems I was thinking just now... you know, it seems quite probably that Aaron went by the name Abrahams more frequently than by the name Kozminski. The name Kozminski comes from his workhouse/asylum records of course. But it seems that Woolf went by the name Abrahams almost exclusively. With the exception of the asylum records where he is listed as Kosminski. I think the same might have applied to Aaron. So this "Abrahams" referred to in the newspaper article you posted is very intriguing indeed.


Rob

Hello,
I know the extensive research you did for your book, which I have but have not yet gotten to read.

Did you, or whoever researched all the asylum records also check for Abrahams and other family names in Aaron Kozminski's background?

Might the real suspect be another Kozminski, per DSS's notation, admitted under a different last name, such as Abrahams?

I suspect all this has already been done, but I can't help wondering.

Thx,
curious

[Fisherman]

Phil:

"You get worse Fisherman, in both your approach to the evaluation of evidence and in failing to be realistic."

Do you think you could manage to supply one post with no insults in it? Thank you in advance!

"Anderson and Swanson were senior officials"

I actually know that.

"they were dealing the the policy, administrative and "political" aspects of crime in the cpital."

UI actually know that too.

"From late 1888 Swanson ceased to be the co-ordinator."

I am aware of that.

People in those positions have to rely on the word of their subordinates or they would never be able to do their jobs."

That is something of which I am also aware.

"They cannot double check evcer detail and indeed probably had more pressing concerns."

Ah, but THAT is where you make the wrong move, Phil. What concern was ethere in their carreers that was "more pressing" than the Ripper? Of course, put away in an asylum, he could hopefully do no more damage, but that would not mean that Anderson and Swanson lost interest in him totally. In fact, the Ripper followed these men to their graves. Both were pestered with questions about him, and Anderson commented on him and wrote about him numerous times. Therefore, much as I am not pooh-pooing your suggestion that it would be very much out of line for them to take an active interest in their man and have him reported on, I AM saying that there is a VERY good chance that they DID interest themselves in the case for a very long time after the end of the Ripper scare. And to believe that Kosminski would have been erroneously reported as dead without Anderson and Swanson following up on this, is simply unrealistic. But that does not mean that I will call YOU things and say derogatory things about your stance - you are free to hold it, as long as you realize that others will disagree on very good grounds.

"I am actually not sure that JtR was EVER quite the big deal to the Met officials that it was to the politicians and the public."

And the PRESS, Phil - don´t forget that! They would be the force that drove the Ripper scare more than any else - and the force that demanded the Met to take an active interest, whether they felt like it or not.

"I find it no surprise that, with the suspect favoured put away, Anderson and Swanson believed he died soon afterwards. End of story."

If Kosminski had died early on, you would be correct. Since he did not, you are wrong. It is not end of story by any means.

The best,
Fisherman

[Phil H]

On one earlier point:

Why should Swanson include DISINFORMATION in a note written for his own use, never revealed to his family and written ina tone inferring that he was amplifying and endorsing Anderson's account. I don't think this was, therefore, disinformation.

Phil H

[Paddy]

Hi Phil

My take is that Swanson Expanded on Andersons disinformation (The Book) to maybe highlight the truthful bits.
Did Swanson comment on the suspect being dead I have not read it fully? I think the only bits Swanson elaborated on were the truthful bits. (in my view)

When did Anderson actually first state that suspect was dead?
If it was before suspect died, he used disinformation because it could have created public unrest and posiibly legal action, he couldnt say "And there he remains till this day"
One thing I dont understand, is it disinformation if its in a Biography or does it only apply to legal documents?

I have yet to fully read the Rip128 article on Swanson, but am really enjoying what I have read.

Regards
Pat

[mariab]

The poster is very interesting. I wonder if Israel Lipsky belonged to the Stickmakers mentioned, being himself a stickmaker?
As he was fairly new to the country I can see how he would have become drawn to these types of social groups.... As probably did most young men.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't think there's any evidence of Israel Lipski (of Batty Street #16 fame) having been connected to the IWEC. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, the IWEC was not yet housing at 40, Berner Street when Lipski committed his crime?

As for the poster attached by Tom, interesting to see Wess and Feigenbaum together. Anyone has any idea of who M. Frenchman was?

The East End sounds like Chicago in the 30s. I wonder who thier version of Al Capone was?

Le Grand or Joseph Aarons? Lol. Not really.

[Chris]

My take is that Swanson Expanded on Andersons disinformation (The Book) to maybe highlight the truthful bits.
Did Swanson comment on the suspect being dead I have not read it fully? I think the only bits Swanson elaborated on were the truthful bits. (in my view)

When did Anderson actually first state that suspect was dead?
If it was before suspect died, he used disinformation because it could have created public unrest and posiibly legal action, he couldnt say "And there he remains till this day"

I think I'm right in saying that Anderson didn't ever write that the suspect was dead, though his son Arthur later wrote that Sir Robert "believed that he [the suspect] died in an asylum".

Swanson does say he died soon after he went to Colney Hatch, and was also stated as early as 1895 to have believed the Ripper was a man who was dead. And there were various statements in the 1890s to the effect that the murderer was known or believed to have died (sometimes in an asylum) - those could quite easily be interpreted as disinformation, or at least "news management".

For example, one such claim in 1894 was reported as follows:
"the authorities have been extremely alarmed lest another Jack the Ripper scare should seize upon the popular mind. This led them recently to make the important announcement that they have reason to believe that the author of the Jack the Ripper crimes has been several years in his grave."

http://casebook.org/press_reports/bangor_daily_whig_and_courier/950117.html

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Pat, here's the other poster I mentioned this morning. I would like to see more than just these, and maybe in the future we can. At the time of the murders, the outside of 40 Berner Street was plastered with their propaganda. You're in for a real treat with Rob's book. There were a million ways a book on Kozminski could go wrong, and Rob avoided each of them. One of the only 'must haves' of recent years. And to think yours will be signed!