New Article on Kozminski in Ripperologist 128

[AdamNeilWood]

Thread

Dear all,

Can I ask that discussion on what Anderson, Macnaghten and Swanson had to say about Kosminski, Druitt, Cross et al be moved to the appropriate thread?

This is intended for discussion on Pat Marshall and Chris Phillip's excellent article in Rip 128 on Kosminski and their new discoveries.

Best wishes
Adam

[Jonathan H]

To Phil H

Yes that's all fair enough.

The reason I do not share this opinion is that Mac made no mistakes about Druitt in his memoirs and arguably had a better sense of the vital details about 'Kosminski' than did either Anderson and Swanson.

Also consider this:

An upper class police chief, a Gentile and an Anglican, has a choice between a fellow gentleman whom [you claim] had no association with the East End, and whose suicide was not immediately after the 'awful glut' which he conceded in 1914.

A choice between a local, foreign, insane wretch who was permanently incarcerated versus a successful barrister and a promising cricketer.

The first suspect had the backing of other top cops, the second seems to be unknown to them -- a 'secret'.

And Mac chooses ... the gentleman suspect?!

Who cannot defend himself? Who was never arrested for anything?

Historically that's strong that the posthumous evidence was perceived to be devastating, as the primary source goes against its expected bias.

As for the Polish Jew suspect he was debunked in Mac's memoirs -- eg. not a Jew, no witness, never detained in an asylum -- in fact is dumped altogether. 'Kosminski' is not an alternative to Druitt to this police chief (to Sims he seems to have told him that an American medico was the only possible 'other theory').

[Fisherman]

David:

"A sexually insane English doctor... A mad Russian doctor... An insane Polish Jew...
It's time to realize that they are personnifications of outdated theories rather than serious suspects - whatever Mac or Anderson said they knew."

Iīm speachless, David. We agree ...?

Although how serious they were per se is open to discussion, since we donīt have the details. But on the whole, yes, there WAS an agenda among the police when it came to typification.

Fisherman

[DVV]

Hi all
A sexually insane English doctor... A mad Russian doctor... An insane Polish Jew...
It's time to realize that they are personnifications of outdated theories rather than serious suspects - whatever Mac or Anderson said they knew.

[Fisherman]

Jonathan:

"Something brought Aaron Kosminski to the attention of police, or initially one policeman, and inspired the creation -- whether consciously or not -- of the semi-fictional 'Kosminski' of Anderson-Macnaghten-Swanson who is a much stronger suspect than the real person who lies behind that profile."

Iīm sorry, Jonathan, but I donīt think we know enough about Aaron Kosminsky to conclude such a thing. Yes, from what we KNOW, it is true - but we know very little. My own stance is that something brought Kosminsky, Pizer, Issenschmidt, Puckridge - all of these characters to the attention of the police, and it need not have been more than having displayed an odd behaviour. The police were looking for a madman, and not for rationally behaving persons.

Have a look at Halse, on the Double event night, who halts two men only to let them go since they could account for themselves. Saying "My name is Charles Cross and I am en route to my work as a carman at Pickfords" was quite enough - then you were a normal person, and in a place where you ought to be. Which is why NOT straying from his work route makes Lechmere an intelligent guy if he was the killer, by the bye!

'Personally, and after much careful and deliberate consideration, I am inclined to exonerate two of them.'

This includes 'Kosminski'. But why?"

The billion dollar question! And we wonīt be answering it today, will we? But we MAY lend an ear to the wording, "Personally," (others did not agree and Mac knew it) "and after much careful and deliberate consideration" (these two men could not be ruled out on any definitive grounds, Mac had to employ much careful and deliberate consideration to take the step, and so it was more of a case of wanting Druitt than of not wanting Kos & Os for the murders. Also, if I am correct, then Mac DID have doubts, and that can only be attributed to a verdict of "no certainty" on his behalf visavi Druitt), "I am inclined to exonerate two of them" (and thatīs inclined - he had made his mind up, but he had chosen from three viable candidates. And letīs face it, they could not all have been the Ripper, could they? Likewise, none of them must have been).

"It seems to be because the Polish madman's chronic masturbation and trying to kill somebody else, as a sign of a shattered mind, does not compare with jumping in a river and drowning yourself right after the Kelly massacre -- Mac's 'awful glut' litmus test."

Mmm. But we both know that serialists are more likely to carry on than to commit suicide, on the whole. In that respect, obviously Kosminsky makes for a better suspect. But if I had known what Mac knew, I would perhaps made a different sort of weighing. Then again, if I had known what Anderson and Swanson knew, that could have changed the picture once more.

But I really donīt think that either of them KNEW who the killer was. But then again, you will have realized this already!

The best,
Fisherman

[Phil H]

do you mean Kosminski could have killed Stride, but wasn't JtR ?

No - but that if the Kosminksi evidence continues to build, I'll add Stride to the JtR list (though I would still have some questions about Eddowes and even more about Kelly as victims of that killer).

But on current evidence i would now hypothesise that Nichols, Chapman and stride at least were JtR victims - and that JtR might well have been Aaron. But that is ONLY a working hypothesis and I carry several in my head at any time.

Phil H

[Phil H]

Jonathan

At least Kosminski can be SHOWN to have a connection to the area, to have known the streets and the people of the East End. That's more than can be said for MJD.

This research appears to place him in close relation to a murder site that is - from some perspectives - slightly apart from the others. he has a knowledge of the area. More than can be said for MJD.

Kosminski's mental state is also not in question in general terms, enough to have him sectioned for life. MJD committed suicide for reasons we can infer but not prove.

There are mistakes about Kosminski, but MM makes errors about MJD.

On the whole, I'd say that the balance here comes out on the side of Kosminski as a suspect rather than Druitt - whio is only LATER, CLAIMED to be a suspect with no connections known to the area or crime scenes.

Phil H

[Jonathan H]

To Fisherman

Something brought Aaron Kosminski to the attention of police, or initially one policeman, and inspired the creation -- whether consciously or not -- of the semi-fictional 'Kosminski' of Anderson-Macnaghten-Swanson who is a much stronger suspect than the real person who lies behind that profile.

Anderson in 1910 will allude to the house-to-search somehow helping to zero in on the Polish Jew, and then the positive witness identification. And this seems to be happening just after Miller's Ct. -- certainly before the McKenzie murder in July 1889.

These streets being so close fits a detail in Mac's arguably sexed-up version of this suspect, in 'Aberconway', the version which was [anonymously] disseminated to the public:

'Kosminski, a Polish Jew, who lived in the very heart of the district where the murders were committed. He had become insane owing to many years indulgence in solitary vices ...'

Macnaghten has both of these details seemingly correct about Aaron Kosminski. Then it begins to slide away from the real person:

'He had a great hatred of women with strong homicidal tendencies ...'

Well, he threatened a female relation with a knife.

'He was (and I believe still is) detained in a lunatic asylum ...'

That's true too and, incredibly, Anderson and Swanson do not know this? The latter will claim he died soon after being sectioned.

'... about March 1889 ...'

This seems to be the origin of the retrospective myth of the tidily wrapped up investigation soon after Kelly.

Also, if you were a Kosminski (better known by another name) you would read that detail in Griffiths and/or Sims and relax knowing that they could not possibly be talking about your [un-named] Aaron who was sectioned in Feb 1891.

Then follows the idea of a plausible witness maybe seeing 'Kosminski' with a victim, whom he presumably lived near according to Mac:

'The man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square'.

This maybe the origin of the notion that 'Kosminski' was confronted with a witness (see: Sims 1907)

Of course there was a catch with this suspect, him and Ostrog, the latter a depressive thief who morphs here into a maniacal Russian -- who really is a doctor and not just posing as one (two suspects who are not doctors become undoubtedly medical men).

'Personally, and after much careful and deliberate consideration, I am inclined to exonerate two of them.'

This includes 'Kosminski'. But why?

It seems to be because the Polish madman's chronic masturbation and trying to kill somebody else, as a sign of a shattered mind, does not compare with jumping in a river and drowning yourself right after the Kelly massacre -- Mac's 'awful glut' litmus test.

Of course, the real Druitt does not meet that criteria either.

[DVV]

Hi Phil
do you mean Kosminski could have killed Stride, but wasn't JtR ?

[Phil H]

Well, I haven't read the article yet, but the summary in this thread, gives me much food or thought.

I have long held a view that Stride was probably not a JtR victim, but that on the other hand Kosminski was a plausible suspect (not least given senior police support). This information will make me re-think my views. Clearly Aaron would have known the area well.

One also wonders whether his association with the area, and local peoples' memories of him, might have been a factor in Anderson/Swanson's view? No proof they may have said, but it adds to our picture.

I must now give priority to getting hold of the article which I will read with the utmost interest.

My sincere congratulations to those who did the research - which shows there is still information to be discovered and new ground to be made. Really excellent work.

Phil H

[Fisherman]

IRONY-IRONY-IRONY-IRONY-IRONY-IRONY-IRONY-IRONY-IRONY

Sounds like crap research to me. Why would we care about these addresses, the Providence Street one and the Berner Street ditto? Just because Kosminsky MAY have been there - and we have no proof that he was!! - hundreds of thousands of OTHER Eastenders will also have passed the spots.

And surely, Kosminsky would not be stupid enough to kill on his own doorstep? I mean - be for real, people!

NON IRONY-NON IRONY-NON IRONY-NON IRONY-NON IRONY-NON IRONY

Congratulations to Chris Phillips and Pat Marshall for these finds. Very interesting and a significant step forward for the Kosminsky believers! Great job!

The best,
Fisherman

[Beowulf]

I saw an article that there was a long thin alleyway next to the IWEC. Where did it lead out? Could he have used it? I don't know if he would've need too, but just wondered 'Jack' ducked out of site through use of it.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5555

I wish there is more information on daily life in Wolf Kosminski's home. I'm hoping something on that comes out somehow. I'm thinking early hours to bed for the working half of the family, making late nights somewhat unobserved.

[Robert]

A very interesting article. Congratulations to the authors.

[robhouse]

Hi Tom,

Cheers. You will note that I said "the future home of the IWEC". I think the interesting point is that Kozminski would have been well acquainted with the area where the Stride murder took place because it was right next door to his previous residence.

Yes, Pat has indeed done some great work. She is the great-great niece of Detective Henry Cox... so she has detective genes I think.

Rob H

[Tom_Wescott]

I loved Pat and Chris' article. I'd never heard of Pat Marshall before, but I'm a fan now. Fantastic piece of research. To think that Aaron Kosminski would have hung out, and possibly even LIVED next door to Fanny Mortimer is just awesome. Perhaps that's what drove him nuts! And yes, the Providence Row address would have been very close to Berner Street. However, just for the sake of reference (for those who haven't read the article), the IWEC did not move into 40 Berner Street until 1885, so these connections do not necessarily mean that Koz was associated with them, although I've long suspected Aaron was associated with anarchists.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott