New Article on Kozminski in Ripperologist 128

[Mr Lucky]

Odd that the article states "Jack is their prey chiefly."... not entirely certain what is meant by Jack, but it seems to me that it perhaps has the same meaning as what we in the US call a "john" or in the UK a "punter."

Hi Rob

It may mean 'Jack Tar' or a sailor in other words.

[robhouse]

Interesting also to point out (again to Chris)... "Tiger Bay" was originally the name given to the docklands area of Cardiff. So you are coming full circle here... one Tiger Bay to another.

Rob

[robhouse]

And this:

The Wilds of London, by James Greenwood, 1874 - Preface - A Visit to "Tiger Bay"

http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications3/wilds-1.htm

Seems to me that Brunswick Street was a street full of brothels... which is pretty interesting. You remember that thing we were talking about Chris?

Rob H

[robhouse]

I don't know if this reference has already been posted (from 1865):

"The Pauper, The Thief and the Convict, by Thomas Archer, 1865 - Chapter 7 - Tiger Bay"

http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications3/pauper-7.htm

"The dwelling-place of the ruffian and the thief-Tiger Bay is not named after these, but takes its name from the brothels and those who keep them - the harpies and harlots who deal with drugged liquor, and the slinking bullies who come, like foul beasts, about the prey. "

Odd that the article states "Jack is their prey chiefly."... not entirely certain what is meant by Jack, but it seems to me that it perhaps has the same meaning as what we in the US call a "john" or in the UK a "punter."

RH

[Robert]

Sorry Tom, should be Ottaway. Well the paper said St George in the East, but it seems to be more Hackney, so not relevant from the Berner St point of view. There seems to have been more than one Tiger Bay.

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks for that, Robert. Where the heck was Ottway Street?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Robert]

I had a look through some papers (just the London ones) and it does seem that, where Tiger Bay's location was specified, it was Brunswick St. There were one or two exceptions -

'Ottway St was the heart of a very rough neighbourhood known as “Tiger Bay.” '
Daily News Feb 2nd 1882

[Tom_Wescott]

Stride visited 'Tiger Bay' shortly before her death?

Here's a brief excerpt from my essday 'Exonerating Michael Kidney' where I provided some research into Stride's movements in the days before her death. This suggests that Stride likely visited Hanbury Street on the Thursday before her murder, and also visited an older friend in 'the area of Tiger Bay' at some unspecified date shortly before her murder. The entire article is in the Dissertations section, but here's the portion potentially relevant to our discussion here:

New Information On Stride’s Movements

'The Daily News reporter was interviewing a woman at a mission house where Stride was known, and was told the following:

‘The woman who looks after these mission rooms, “continued the speaker, “was another of the same class, and who used to be an associate of the poor creature murdered in Berner-street. She saw her only last Thursday, and she - that is, the murdered woman - said then that she felt all was coming to some bad end.”

The missionary made mention of another associate of the Berner-street victim. She also was believed to be trying to regain respectability, and it seemed worth while to go down into the depths of the neighbourhood that was formerly known as Tiger Bay to hear what this woman had to say about her former companion. She was found in a small back room at the inner end of a dark court not far from the scene of the murder, and proved to be a vivacious widow with three children, and one eye to look after them with. She first knew the dead woman three years ago, she said, and she was then certainly very pretty, always had a nice clean apron, and was always smart and tidy. She took up with a labourer, said the woman, and “lived indoors with him,” but he beat her and so ill-used her that she was forced to turn out in the streets. She took to drink, and seemed to grow reckless and desperate. For two years she never saw anything of her, but recently the deceased called on her old acquaintance, who had got her own room and a few scraps of furniture about her. The desolate woman congratulated her old acquaintance on having a comfortable home (!) invited her to come and drink with her, and, this being refused, she took out twopence-all she had in the world-and insisted on sharing it for old acquaintance sake. “Oh dear, oh dear!” ejaculated the woman, “ain’t it awful though!” “No doubt all these poor creatures are dreading to go into the streets,” it was observed. “I should just think they was,” was the reply. “Why, they’re a’most afraid to sit indoors. I gets my living among ‘em,” continued the woman with frank communicativeness-“not them as lives at the lodging-houses like her,” she explained; “there ain’t much to be got out o’ them, but the regular respectable ones. I does charing for ‘em, and lor’ bless you they just are scared. ‘I shall turn it up,’ they says. But then, as I says, what have they got to turn to?”

There is little doubt but that this woman knew Stride, who did indeed ‘take up’ with Michael Kidney about three years before, as was her recollection. She stated that she hadn’t seen Stride for about two years prior to just recently, when Stride turned up again, and that when she had previously seen Stride she had moved out from Kidney’s place on account of abuse. The woman clearly was not aware that Stride returned to Kidney and that her leaving him was somewhat frequent.

Regarding the abusive behavior of Kidney, the woman could be a bit off in her time and this could refer to the same incident in April of 1887 when Stride accused Kidney of assault, or it could be another incident that occurred before this, or it could just be Stride using sympathy to get money to drink. The crucial point about this woman’s statement is that it is the first evidence we have that Stride had been in the Berner Street area not long before her murder was committed. Tiger Bay was in the same neighborhood as Berner Street, so close that many mistakenly thought Berner Street a part of Tiger Bay as well. The reporter even remarked that the one-eyed woman’s back room lodgings were ‘not far from the scene of the murder.’ It is unfortunate that the journalist did not press the woman for more details, such as how recently Stride had paid her a visit. But we do have clues, such as that Stride had apparently told the woman she was staying in a lodging house. If this is true, it means that Stride may have visited her the very week of her murder.

Without wanting to digress from our primary topic too much more, I will quickly mention that it is interesting that the missionary woman should say that the lady in charge of the mission rooms had seen Stride just the Thursday before her death. The mission in question was probably Dr. Thomas Barnardo’s mission in Hanbury Street, as Barnardo claimed that Stride was present in the lodging house at 32 Flower and Dean Street when he visited only the day before. He stated that the women were frightened of the Whitechapel murderer, and one woman called out, “We’re all up to no good, no one cares what becomes of us! Perhaps some of us will be next!” A few days later he identified Stride’s body as one of the women present.'

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Chris and Hunter. So has it been determined that Brunswick Street was the 'official' Tiger Bay? I've read many reports that referred to Berner Street, Backchurch lane, etc as the Tiger Bay area, but if Brunswick Street was the real Tiger Bay, then that would explain the editorial comment from the Times reporter who covered the Stride inquest, and a local like Edward Spooner would have known this, so the likelihood is that he was specifically referring to Brunswick Street as the residence of Mr. Harris. I apologize if I threw up a red herring here, but if nothing else, you've provided a bit more insight into Mr. Harris, who I've been curious about for some time. And Brunswick Street IS just one street over from Providence, so you never know.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

At the time mentioned, the stronghold of the scaly monster was the snug creeks and inlets of a locality known as Tiger Bay, but the real name of which was Brunswick Gardens, and mainly consisted of a long and sinuous thoroughfare, extending from the "Highway" to Cable Street. An innocent and harmless-looking street, with a respectable meeting-house, belonging to some religious sect, at one corner; but the foolishly confiding mariner who listened to the voice of the siren, and to her offer to convoy him for a further exploration, was in danger. From one end to the other, Tiger Bay abounded with man-traps and pitfalls, and with all manner of hole-in-corner haunts resorted to by sailors hailing from foreign shores-jet-black Africans, yellow-skinned Malay's with their nether lip make to project hideously by means of a wooden plug, copper-coloured ******s from the Indian Archipelago, and sickly saffron-hued Celestials, who hurried there the moment they were free to do so, hotly eager to enjoy the unspeakable delight of opium-smoking.

James Greenwood- 1883

The original "Tiger Bay" was in Cardiff, but the name quickly became synonymous for any district near the docks patronized by seafarers of many nations and the "man-eaters" who preyed upon them.

[Chris]

But if you look at the 1891 census for the birth of his son, Israel, 7, he was born in London, St. Georges. It may be that recently-arrived European immigrants would move into shared housing with other immigrants who had been in London for several years. The established immigrants would have better command of the English language and have been able to answer census enumerators and surveyors for business directories. The profession of the newly arrived immigrant and his family would have been confined to a secondary room, or an upstairs premise, while the "matriarch" would have his business on the main floor and assume the role of spokesman for the other immigrant families..

The possibility remains, that despite his naturalization record where he said he was only in London since 1889, the master baker, Maurice Kosminski, may have been a resident at 70 Berner Street in 1888, subservient to the tailor, Karl Frederick P----- (sorry writing from memory). Why his naturalization record was in error, if it actually was, I don't know.

I think the explanation for the apparent contradiction is that the naturalisation application says only that he moved to 70 Berner Street on 15 December 1889, not that he arrived in London then. It does say that he had resided in the UK for "five years during the eight years immediately preceding", and lists his residences during those five years starting with 70 Berner Street, but I believe "five years during the eight years immediately preceding" was the legal minimum, so that there's no implication he hadn't been in the UK for longer than that. For example, the same wording is used in Morris Lubnowski's naturalisation application in June 1888, though he stated that he had been in the UK since June 1881.

[Chris]

That entire area, at one time or another, was known as 'Tiger Bay', including Berner Street itself, although technically 'Tiger Bay' had a more defined locale.

Are you sure the entire area was known as Tiger Bay? Granted I can see a single reference to it from 1865 as "a district represented by Brunswick Street, and the thoroughfares or no thoroughfares surrounding it" (http://www.victorianlondon.org/publi...3/pauper-7.htm ). But in all the other references I can see Brunswick Street itself is specified.

[Scott Nelson]

Unfortunately Morris Kozminski didn't move to 70 Berner Street until 15 December 1889, according to his naturalisation papers in 1895:

But if you look at the 1891 census for the birth of his son, Israel, 7, he was born in London, St. Georges. It may be that recently-arrived European immigrants would move into shared housing with other immigrants who had been in London for several years. The established immigrants would have better command of the English language and have been able to answer census enumerators and surveyors for business directories. The profession of the newly arrived immigrant and his family would have been confined to a secondary room, or an upstairs premise, while the "matriarch" would have his business on the main floor and assume the role of spokesman for the other immigrant families..

The possibility remains, that despite his naturalization record where he said he was only in London since 1889, the master baker, Maurice Kosminski, may have been a resident at 70 Berner Street in 1888, subservient to the tailor, Karl Frederick P----- (sorry writing from memory). Why his naturalization record was in error, if it actually was, I don't know.

[Tom_Wescott]

That's interesting, but the Times was right in identifying 'Tiger Bay' as Brunswick Street.

For example, at this Old Bailey trial in 1855, Tiger's Bay is identified as Brunswick Street, near the Beehive on King Street, Commercial Road. (King Street later became Christian Street, and the Beehive was at number 71, on the corner with Fairclough Street.)

Hi Chris. That entire area, at one time or another, was known as 'Tiger Bay', including Berner Street itself, although technically 'Tiger Bay' had a more defined locale. I'm well aware that Brunswick Street, along with half a dozen or more other streets in the immediate area, could be called 'Tiger Bay'. The fact remains that Edward Spooner did not specify what street Mr. Harris lived on, but judging by Spooner's path, it was likely either Brunswick or Providence Street.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Cogidubnus]

I have a feeling Aaron went away for a while, at some point shortly after the Millers court murder. Also why was Woolfs daughter out of school from 11/10/88 till 6/5/89 did the family go away?

Thanks Patricia and Chris for the fascinating research on the Kosminskis...but Patricia's question above, posed earlier on this thread, has really grabbed my attention...some sort of family crisis perhaps?

All the best

Dave