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  • #31
    Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post

    Hi Simon, maybe the answer is because if the witness was Lawende and he did say the person he saw at church passage had the appearance of a sailor. Maybe he thought said person was a sailor and only afterwards found out he was a fellow Jew.
    If Kosminski was taken to be identified at a Sailor or Seamans home, instead of a seaside home to give the ID more veracity IE Suspect identified at a Sailor/Seamans mission because Lawende expected the killer to be a Sailor not a Jew much would make sense.
    Kosminski ID successful [to an extent], in a place were he probably was taken with difficulty in a place were you would expect to see other Sailors as well., after all if a victim of a robbery was robbed by someone with a beard you would not place a suspect in an ID parade for the victim to look at with a row full of clean shaven people, if you follow my drift. So Kosminski is identified, then Lawende finds out he is a fellow Jew more doubts creep into his head that he has got the right person after a lengthy spell and a cursory glance. He tells the officer in charge about his doubts [possibly City police] who never the less keep watch. He gets removed to Colney Hatch not long after, Anderson is exasperated thinking they had a strong suspect in their grasp and as the years went on and no one else was ever charged with the murders the more his beliefs about a strong suspect hardened. Also Lawende is then asked to ID Sadler not long after, again a sometime sailor at possibly another Seamans home which he fails to do possibly adding to Anderson and Swanson's beliefs that Lawende was right the first time despite his doubts, and also adding to the confusion of an ID at a Sailor/ Seamans home instead of a Seaside home.
    What we must remember is Swanson wrote his notes down at least 22 years after the murders in nothing more than rough jottings. to my mind he could easily have written Seaside home instead of Sailors or Seamans home. It is tempting to think.
    Regards Darryl
    Seaside home, or seamans home, everything about this ID parade as described from a practical police perspective is all wrong.

    For it to have happened Kosminski would either had to have been arrested, or agreed to go on a voluntary basis and would have to have consented in both cases. There is no record or any mention of him being arrested, and if he had been the killer would he agree to go on a parade where he might be identified, the answer is no.

    The parade as described would appear to have been what is called a direct confrontation, which given the circumstances would not have stood up in court even if the matter had got to court.

    Swansons mentions the city police becoming involved, but Major Smith makes no mention of such an event.

    I have said before and will keep saying, to much reliance has been placed on the Swanson marginalia in support of Kosminski being a prime suspect.

    The full results of my lengthy review of everything connected to Kosminski, and the marginalia are to be found in my book Jack the Ripper the real truth availeble in both paperabck and kindle

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper...5752176&sr=8-2

    www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

      It does make sense if Swanson never penned the marginlia, because if it was penned by another author in more recent years, that author would have known that there was never any likelihood of the story being proved or disproved, which is what we see today. Thats why everyone is trying to find something that was never there to be found.

      www.trevormarriott.co.uk
      Why would a hoaxer add a random detail like the Seaside home?

      A more likely explanation is that Swanson confused it with the Sailors home where Sadler was identified.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
        For it to have happened Kosminski would either had to have been arrested, or agreed to go on a voluntary basis and would have to have consented in both cases.
        Or... Kosminski was under the orders of a doctor, which would explain sent by us with difficulty. The police faced similar difficulties identifying Isenschmidt whilst he was under protection of doctors.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Harry D View Post

          Why would a hoaxer add a random detail like the Seaside home?

          A more likely explanation is that Swanson confused it with the Sailors home where Sadler was identified.
          In that case MM would have known about it as would others who were involved and he would have mentioned the ID parade in his Memo when he discussed Sadler suspect status.

          Sadler was never identified !

          www.trevormarriott.co.uk

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

            In that case MM would have known about it as would others who were involved and he would have mentioned the ID parade in his Memo when he discussed Sadler suspect status.

            Sadler was never identified !

            www.trevormarriott.co.uk
            Don't split hairs. I meant that Sadler was subject to an identification.

            Of course, if Lawende DID identify Kosminski, it poses the question as to who identified William Grainger in 1895. If The Pall Mall Gazette is to be believed, this witness identified Grainger as the same person they saw that night. It wouldn't make sense for them to use Lawende again if he had already identified Kosminski.

            Comment


            • #36
              there is no doubt that an ID took place, that it was koz, the witness lawende and it took place at some kind of sea/sailors home. If Darryl is correct, and its as good an explanation as any, my question would be why at sailors home? what connection would lawende the police or koz have to this place?
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                there is no doubt that an ID took place, that it was koz, the witness lawende and it took place at some kind of sea/sailors home. If Darryl is correct, and its as good an explanation as any, my question would be why at sailors home? what connection would lawende the police or koz have to this place?
                Sailors Homes were places near the docks that sailors could stay in between voyages
                Seaside Homes were places for recuperation by the seaside, fresh air etc
                If Kosminski was ill.... ?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post

                  Sailors Homes were places near the docks that sailors could stay in between voyages
                  Seaside Homes were places for recuperation by the seaside, fresh air etc
                  If Kosminski was ill.... ?
                  thanks Jon

                  Darryl specifically mentions these possibilities:
                  to the Sailors Home in Well St [now Ensign St], and the nearby Destitute Sailors' Asylum which was on the next street , Dock S


                  how would any of these places fit with what you say in regards to koz?
                  and or what connections would the police or lawende have with any of these places? could lawende have been ill and staying here?
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                    thanks Jon

                    Darryl specifically mentions these possibilities:


                    how would any of these places fit with what you say in regards to koz?
                    and or what connections would the police or lawende have with any of these places? could lawende have been ill and staying here?[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
                    Hi Abby

                    My totally unqualified guess would be that KOS had rights as a patient (like Isenscmidt, whose doctor refused the police attempts to put him a line up) and something was set up where the police offer Kosminski (through his doctor or family) a short stay in a police home by the sea and the police witness is wheeled in.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post

                      Or... Kosminski was under the orders of a doctor, which would explain sent by us with difficulty. The police faced similar difficulties identifying Isenschmidt whilst he was under protection of doctors.
                      If he was under a doctor for mental health issues then the question of consent would apply. A doctor could not give consent on behalf of a patient and i doubt a doctor would allow him to be taken out for such a purpose.

                      There is no evidence to show that the Kosminski mentioned was even Aaron ?

                      www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                        there is no doubt that an ID took place, that it was koz, the witness lawende and it took place at some kind of sea/sailors home. If Darryl is correct, and its as good an explanation as any, my question would be why at sailors home? what connection would lawende the police or koz have to this place?
                        But its not the right explanation !

                        www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post

                          Hi Abby

                          My totally unqualified guess would be that KOS had rights as a patient (like Isenscmidt, whose doctor refused the police attempts to put him a line up) and something was set up where the police offer Kosminski (through his doctor or family) a short stay in a police home by the sea and the police witness is wheeled in.
                          thanks Jon

                          a short stay in a police home by the sea



                          but your back to the polices seaside home. im asking about the two closer places Darryl mentioned :


                          to the Sailors Home in Well St [now Ensign St], and the nearby Destitute Sailors' Asylum which was on the next street , Dock S
                          whats the connection of the police lawende or kos to these?
                          Last edited by Abby Normal; 08-20-2019, 02:50 PM.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                            but your back to the polices seaside home. im asking about the two closer places Darryl mentioned :[/FONT][/COLOR]

                            to the Sailors Home in Well St [now Ensign St], and the nearby Destitute Sailors' Asylum which was on the next street , Dock

                            [/LEFT]
                            Ah, I`m sorry. Those two places were just cheap lodging houses for sailors in between voyages.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

                              If he was under a doctor for mental health issues then the question of consent would apply. A doctor could not give consent on behalf of a patient and i doubt a doctor would allow him to be taken out for such a purpose.
                              I don`t know the legalities.
                              But the doctor must be able to give consent because if it was left to the family, a patient may never be deemed fit enough to stand in a line up.
                              But do we know if the doctor refused ?


                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post

                                I don`t know the legalities.
                                But the doctor must be able to give consent because if it was left to the family, a patient may never be deemed fit enough to stand in a line up.
                                But do we know if the doctor refused ?

                                There is no evidence to suggest the situation ever presented itself in the first place. For him to have been taken anywhere he would have to have been first arrested. you cant just drag someone off the street, or from their home, or a hospital and transport them to some place and then subject them to an ID procedure. Such actions would prejudice any future proceedings. Not to mention the direct confrontation ID parade.

                                Here are the guidelines with regard to ID parades from the Victorian Codes of Practice
                                1. It is of the utmost importance that the identification of a person who may be charged with a criminal offence should be conducted in the fairest possible manner. (Direct confrontation is not fair) my words
                                2. With this end in view the following procedure should be observed :
                                (a) The officer in charge of the case against the prisoner, although present, should take no part in the particular proceedings connected with the identification, which should be carried out by the officer on duty in charge of the station or court.
                                (b) The witnesses should not be allowed to see the accused before he is placed with others for the purpose of identification, nor should they be shown photographs of him or verbal or written descriptions.
                                (c) The accused should be placed among a number of persons (not police)—eight or more, of similar age, height, general appearance, and class of life. He should be invited to stand where he pleases among them, and to change his position after each witness has been called in. He should be asked if he has any objection to any of the persons present, or the arrangements made, and, if he wishes, his solicitor or a friend actually in attendance may be allowed to be present.
                                (d) The witnesses should be brought in one by one, and be directed to touch the person they identify. On leaving they should not be allowed to communicate with any other witness in waiting.
                                (e) Every circumstance attending the identification should be carefully noted by the officer carrying it out, and whether the accused be identified or not, care being taken that when a witness fails to identify the fact should be as carefully recorded with name and address as in the contrary case—the object being that no subsequent allegation of unfairness can lie.
                                (f) Any statement made by the person suspected must be recorded at once and read over to the officer in charge of the case in the presence of the prisoner, who should be invited to sign it.
                                www.trevormarriott.co.uk
                                Last edited by Trevor Marriott; 08-20-2019, 03:37 PM.

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