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A possibility for the Seaside Home?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    Anyone want to address this in connection with the claims that a Seaside ID answers the "Jack" question a few years before 1896? If an ID took place it obviously didn't answer anything satisfactorily....more police were added to the streets again after the 1896 letter, and they had people look at the handwriting. Jack The Ripper crimes were never solved, any Seaside "ID" cannot have been the answer, and as late as 1910 people like Abberline still claimed that no-one knew who Jack was.
    Who said finding the seaside home and when, or if Kosminski was identified there solved the JTR mystery once and for all? As far as I am concerned Michael it is just one piece in many puzzles in the whole of the mystery, But it is a piece of the puzzle I, and probably others are interested in.
    Regards Darryl

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
      I do believe an ID took place involving Kosminski and probably Lawenede the problem is as I have mentioned I simply cannot believe the police took a suspect under restraint and with difficulty all the way, sixty odd miles to Brighton. And that is not to mention taking the witness there and all it would cost etc
      What if the witness was at the convalescent home?

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Harry D View Post

        What if the witness was at the convalescent home?
        Not sure about that Harry, unless the witness was a policeman or a member of staff. With Lawende being a commercial traveller by trade and if he was the witness then maybe he was in Brighton at that time? Although I doubt it because I believe that the ID took place not long before Kosminski was incarcerated and we know that Lawende was used against Sadler not long later.
        Regards Darryl

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Harry D View Post

          What if the witness was at the convalescent home?
          Then the police manpower would have had to have been increased to convey him, thus letting more people in on the act, and any of those people who could have come forward over the ensuing years confirming the positive ID.But no one did, not from the police, or anyone from the mythical seaside home.

          Do you really believe this ID took place as described by Swanson, yet not corroborated by his boss McNaughton ?

          www.trevormarriott.co.uk

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post

            ...and we know that Lawende was used against Sadler not long later.
            Regards Darryl
            The "evidence" that Lawende was used to try and i.d. Sadler is dodgy, at best. We should be very careful when assessing unconfirmed newspaper accounts.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post

              Then the police manpower would have had to have been increased to convey him, thus letting more people in on the act, and any of those people who could have come forward over the ensuing years confirming the positive ID.But no one did, not from the police, or anyone from the mythical seaside home.

              Do you really believe this ID took place as described by Swanson, yet not corroborated by his boss McNaughton ?

              www.trevormarriott.co.uk
              Good question, Trevor. I am not sure what to believe.

              However, I am fairly confident that Swanson did not make up the ID at the "Seaside Home". But why would the police send a witness to be identified at a police convalescent home? It only makes sense if the witness was a copper, one possibly recuperating there. However, this cannot be reconciled with the part about the witness being a Jew who refused to testify. None of it makes much sense.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post

                Who said finding the seaside home and when, or if Kosminski was identified there solved the JTR mystery once and for all? As far as I am concerned Michael it is just one piece in many puzzles in the whole of the mystery, But it is a piece of the puzzle I, and probably others are interested in.
                Regards Darryl
                Fair enough Darryl, I was just pointing out that if this actually occurred then their reactions in '96 are hard to understand. I wonder about something....since the ID was a supposedly a Jew-Jew situation, and Kates murder does not have any such component within the evidence, might this attempt have been in regards to The International Club event? Is it really likely that their go-to witness, pulled out of their pocket again in '96, was Lawende? I hate to consider it because Ive already deemed this witness to be a distraction at best, but I wonder if it wasn't Schwartz? Maybe keeping him off the grid by having no records he meant anything to the Inquest, and in the investigation as a consequence, allowed them to keep him safe and usable later on. Another one of those mysteries Darryl.
                Michael Richards

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                • #23
                  This is a completely baseless stab in the dark here but might a witness, for some reason, have felt in fear of his life from the killer and so the police used the Seaside Home as a kind of safe house away from the East End until, hopefully, the killer was identified, charged and incarcerated?
                  Regards

                  Herlock






                  "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                    This is a completely baseless stab in the dark here but might a witness, for some reason, have felt in fear of his life from the killer and so the police used the Seaside Home as a kind of safe house away from the East End until, hopefully, the killer was identified, charged and incarcerated?
                    What you suggest is sequestering Herlock, and as I said in my previous post, they could have kept him safe enough if he was off the radar anyway. They did sequester Lawende, but we don't hear about anyone else being in a "safe house" by the Met.
                    Michael Richards

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                      This is a completely baseless stab in the dark here but might a witness, for some reason, have felt in fear of his life from the killer and so the police used the Seaside Home as a kind of safe house away from the East End until, hopefully, the killer was identified, charged and incarcerated?
                      Surely there was somewhere closer to home for them to conduct the identification in seclusion, rather than all the way in Brighton?

                      Like I said, it only makes sense if the witness was already there (i.e. a copper) but this doesn't square with what Anderson & Swanson's said.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                        Surely there was somewhere closer to home for them to conduct the identification in seclusion, rather than all the way in Brighton?

                        Like I said, it only makes sense if the witness was already there (i.e. a copper) but this doesn't square with what Anderson & Swanson's said.
                        agree Harry-and I think DK may be onto something. The ID took place, confirmed by swanson and somewhat by Mac. and it was Koz and most likely Lawende, both jewish and the result ultimately led Anderson to think he had his man.

                        I think it may be just another case of sr police official, this case swanson, getting a detail wrong.
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Michael and Harry,

                          No argument from me on these points. It was just an off the cuff suggestion.

                          I do like Darryl’s suggestion though
                          Regards

                          Herlock






                          "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Harry D View Post

                            Good question, Trevor. I am not sure what to believe.

                            However, I am fairly confident that Swanson did not make up the ID at the "Seaside Home". But why would the police send a witness to be identified at a police convalescent home? It only makes sense if the witness was a copper, one possibly recuperating there. However, this cannot be reconciled with the part about the witness being a Jew who refused to testify. None of it makes much sense.
                            It does make sense if Swanson never penned the marginlia, because if it was penned by another author in more recent years, that author would have known that there was never any likelihood of the story being proved or disproved, which is what we see today. Thats why everyone is trying to find something that was never there to be found.

                            www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Sir Robert Anderson opined that “it is a remarkable fact that people of that class [Jewish] in the East End will not give up one of their number to Gentile justice."

                              He continued—

                              "I will merely add that the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer unhesitatingly identified the suspect the instant he was confronted with him; but he refused to give evidence against him," to which Swanson appended a pencilled note regarding the identification—

                              " . . . because the suspect was also a Jew and also because his evidence would convict the suspect, and witness would be the means of murderer being hanged which he did not wish to be left on his mind.”

                              If this identification did take place at the Seaside Home, and the witness had "had a good view of the murderer," why did he not already know the suspect was a Jew?

                              Why did this come as such a last minute surprise?
                              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post

                                If this identification did take place at the Seaside Home, and the witness had "had a good view of the murderer," why did he not already know the suspect was a Jew?

                                Why did this come as such a last minute surprise?
                                Hi Simon, maybe the answer is because if the witness was Lawende and he did say the person he saw at church passage had the appearance of a sailor. Maybe he thought said person was a sailor and only afterwards found out he was a fellow Jew.
                                If Kosminski was taken to be identified at a Sailor or Seamans home, instead of a seaside home to give the ID more veracity IE Suspect identified at a Sailor/Seamans mission because Lawende expected the killer to be a Sailor not a Jew much would make sense.
                                Kosminski ID successful [to an extent], in a place were he probably was taken with difficulty in a place were you would expect to see other Sailors as well., after all if a victim of a robbery was robbed by someone with a beard you would not place a suspect in an ID parade for the victim to look at with a row full of clean shaven people, if you follow my drift. So Kosminski is identified, then Lawende finds out he is a fellow Jew more doubts creep into his head that he has got the right person after a lengthy spell and a cursory glance. He tells the officer in charge about his doubts [possibly City police] who never the less keep watch. He gets removed to Colney Hatch not long after, Anderson is exasperated thinking they had a strong suspect in their grasp and as the years went on and no one else was ever charged with the murders the more his beliefs about a strong suspect hardened. Also Lawende is then asked to ID Sadler not long after, again a sometime sailor at possibly another Seamans home which he fails to do possibly adding to Anderson and Swanson's beliefs that Lawende was right the first time despite his doubts, and also adding to the confusion of an ID at a Sailor/ Seamans home instead of a Seaside home.
                                What we must remember is Swanson wrote his notes down at least 22 years after the murders in nothing more than rough jottings. to my mind he could easily have written Seaside home instead of Sailors or Seamans home. It is tempting to think.
                                Regards Darryl

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