A Case of Misattribution?

[robhouse]

Concerned doesn't come into it.

But the fundamental principles of the rule of law and innocent until proven guilty do. Remember that Anderson states something like: "if we had had the powers of the French police....." In other words, the police, or at least senior police, were not prepared to act outside of the boundaries of their authority, as laid down according to English law, for Jack the Ripper or anyone else.

Would they have had grounds to place him in an asylum? Why?

Exactly.

Oct 2, 1903 – T.P.’s Weekly (Anderson)
Moreover, it is not in finding the criminal that the greatest difficulty in police work consists, but in finding evidence on which to charge him. … information is generally to be had, and not information only, but proof. But information and proof are not necessarily legal evidence.

Oct 15, 1905 -The Sunday Chronicle, A "Well-known official" quoted (probably Anderson)
"When the police are being condemned," added the official, "for seeming inactivity it should be remembered that to charge a man or woman with murder necessitates publicity, and if the charge is found to be unproven not only do the police suffer in credit, but there is a great deal of personal trouble. Unless we have a strong case we do not arrest. We content ourselves with asking a suspected person to accompany us to the police station to answer a few questions. The person so invited pleases himself how he answers the questions.

"It is perhaps a cynical fact that murderers still at large have paid these visits, and, benefiting by the absence of evidence which would be admissable before a jury, have walked the world again as free men."

1907 - Criminals and Crime: Some Facts and Suggestions (Anderson)
“When I speak of efficiency some people will exclaim, “But what about all the undetected crimes?” I may say here that in London at least the undetected crimes are few. But English law does not permit of an arrest save on legal evidence of guilt, and legal evidence is often wholly wanting where moral proof is complete and convincing. Were I to unfold the secrets of Scotland Yard about crimes respecting which the police have been disparaged and abused in recent years, the result would be a revelation to the public. But that is not my subject here” – pg 81

[Fleetwood Mac]

What's so hard to believe is that if they seriously thought he had done it but thought they could not convict - why keep it from senior local investigating officers, why think Coles was possibly a Ripper victim, and why not get him locked up in an asylum quickly as they would have had grounds to do so based on his previous episodes. Why not at least try to do that to protect public safety. Do you think the police were more concerned with the safety of someone they supposedly seriously thought was Jack the Ripper?

Concerned doesn't come into it.

But the fundamental principles of the rule of law and innocent until proven guilty do. Remember that Anderson states something like: "if we had had the powers of the French police....." In other words, the police, or at least senior police, were not prepared to act outside of the boundaries of their authority, as laid down according to English law, for Jack the Ripper or anyone else.

Would they have had grounds to place him in an asylum? Why?

[Lechmere]

What's so hard to believe is that if they seriously thought he had done it but thought they could not convict - why keep it from senior local investigating officers, why think Coles was possibly a Ripper victim, and why not get him locked up in an asylum quickly as they would have had grounds to do so based on his previous episodes. Why not at least try to do that to protect public safety. Do you think the police were more concerned with the safety of someone they supposedly seriously thought was Jack the Ripper?

[Fleetwood Mac]

This "suspect Jew" was not Anderson's secret at the time of the murders, Anderson appears to have developed this belief in the years after the murders. We are left to question the accuracy of this belief.

Regards, Jon S.

I would hazard a guess that the belief took hold some time between the Mckenzie murder and the identification.

Simply because Anderson takes the time to state that the McKenzie murder was by another hand and lumps this in with the Mylett case, so, in my mind, at this stage he/they were still trying work things out.

As Anderson states their suspicions surrounding JTR being protected were proven correct, I think it's a fair bet to say his family knew of his guilt. But, if they had shopped him to the police, wouldn't this have been enough to convict him? If so, then we're looking at an informant or something they learned from his spells in the workhouse.

[Fleetwood Mac]

So someone supposedly believed to be a likely candidate for Jack the Ripper was allowed to reside at his brothers in the crime zone - and other policemen Were not told as the higher ups wanted it kept secret?

What's so hard to believe?

They couldn't convict him.

They kept watch over him.

Did anyone else need to know? For what purpose? Imagine it getting out that JTR was living at x address - then what?

[Lechmere]

Rob - it is no more nonsense than the diagnosis of schizophrenia - it is clear that while he may have been schizophrenic he was also not capable of funtioning in normal society and was very obviously and overtly mentally impaired.

[Cogidubnus]

Thanks Rob

You and Garry have provided two of the best reads I ever had since becoming interested in JtR...

Sincerely

Dave

[robhouse]

Lechmere,

I am sorry but this post is utter nonsense. Aaron ate food from the gutter because the voices in his head told him to do so, probably out of the paranoid belief that he was being poisoned. There is actually no indication of "public" masturbation. Aaron certainly may have masturbated in front of others... family members is the most likely probability. (But Dahmer did this also, and Dahmer was not mentally retarded.) But again, it is only stated that he practiced self-abuse... not that he did this publicly. ("He is melancholic, practises self-abuse. ") And violence toward family members can be a result of anything, including rage, hatred, psychopathy, etc.

Incidentally, I agree that his symptoms may "go beyond schizophrenia". That does not mean he was not schizophrenic... he almost certainly was. But he may have also been psychopathic, if the MM is to be believed. He quite possibly also suffered from depression. But there is certainly no indication that he was an imbecile, as you seem to be suggesting, and as others have stated in the past (Fido, Sugden etc). But these views are based on faulty interpretation of documents, and apparent lack of knowledge about what types of patients were housed in Leavesden asylum. Aaron's asylum documentation explicitly states that he was not an imbecile (effectively, anyway, by classifying him as one of the other classifications of insanity... specifically "person of unsound mind".) Moreover, the 1901 Leavesden census classifies Aaron as "Lunatic", as opposed to "imbecile", which was the other classification used for patients at that facility. If he actually was a mentally retarded person, he would have been classified as an "imbecile", as imbecile was the term then used for that condition.

RH

[Lechmere]

Rob
Public masturbation, eating food in the gutter and violence towards family members are traits that are more commonly associated with what used to be called 'simple' people or people who would inaccurately be referred to as having a childish mental age - a form of mental retardation. Such people get very difficult for their families to handle when they reach physical maturity. It is almost certainly the case that Kosminski fell into this group. He may have also suffered from schizophrenia.

[Cogidubnus]

Let’s look at Lawende from a different perspective, Dave. If Swanson was accurate when stating that City detectives mounted a covert round the clock surveillance on Kosminski, Major Smith would almost certainly have called upon Lawende to ascertain whether Kosminski was the man seen with Eddowes shortly before her death. The fact that Smith ultimately admitted defeat in the Ripper case is important, for it informs us that Lawende could not have identified Kosminski on behalf of the City force. Thus he either wasn’t Anderson’s witness, or he was and the identification was tainted courtesy of his previous exposure to Kosminski. If the latter, he would have been unusable in any criminal trial and therefore couldn’t have been the witness whose evidence would have convicted Kosminski.
Quick reply to this message

Hi Garry

Apologies for the delay in getting back to you, but I've been doing some thinking (this is rare for me, hence my current state of exhaustion!).

Smith is generally full of bullshit and self-aggrandisement...at least that's the current interpretation ... contemporary feeling would've said merely that he was a good clubman...he certainly told a good story (rolling like a 74 etc).

I suspect, therefore, that he would've had huge difficulty in admitting a complete defeat...like a recalcitrant witness who'd defeated him...I still can't in all honesty decide which though...my heart says Schwartz and my brain says Lawende...

All the best

Dave

[robhouse]

Kosminsky’s symptoms go way beyond schizophrenia.

How do you mean?

[HelenaWojtczak]

Bare in mind

Is that the same as having nudity on the brain?

[Wickerman]

So someone supposedly believed to be a likely candidate for Jack the Ripper was allowed to reside at his brothers in the crime zone - and other policemen Were not told as the higher ups wanted it kept secret?

Bare in mind, both Reid and Abberline were involved at the street level and as far as can be ascertained neither one of them thought this incident sufficiently significant to write about.
We have nothing written at the time (1888) by either Anderson or Swanson to suggest that either of them had a chief suspect who was a lunatic Jew.

We should also remember there were likely dozens of "lunatics" taken in for questioning, or detained by the authorities. This was just another among many.
Interesting though, Sagar of the City police also told a similar tale and Swanson did say it was City CID who were keeping the suspect under surveillance.

Perhaps the Met. were not directly involved with the Kosminski suspect, we only assume they were because they are the major player between the two.
Swanson does say "he was sent by us", but that might only mean "by the authorities", the City & the Met. were working together.

This "suspect Jew" was not Anderson's secret at the time of the murders, Anderson appears to have developed this belief in the years after the murders. We are left to question the accuracy of this belief.

Regards, Jon S.

[Lechmere]

So someone supposedly believed to be a likely candidate for Jack the Ripper was allowed to reside at his brothers in the crime zone - and other policemen Were not told as the higher ups wanted it kept secret?

[Wickerman]

Wickerman
Are you suggestion the so called identification took place before February 1891?

Lechmere, I tentatively suggest, IF, Kosminski was identified as described by Anderson/Swanson, then it was most likely during the four days (July 12-15, 1890) he was held at Mile End Workhouse, and subsequently was returned to his brother's house.

July 1890 is a good 21 months after Millers Court, so the killings had stopped long before this ID took place.
If the ID had occured before he was taken to Mile End, meaning, the police "knew" of his guilt before July 1890 then they would surely have taken this opportunity to incarcerate him permanently.

I still maintain that Swanson's words only indicate that he had suspicions but not that he himself was convinced Kosminski was Jack the Ripper. He is merely identifying who Anderson's "suspect" was, and why.

Regards, Jon S.