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  • Hello all,

    Getting back for a moment to the initial question of the thread if I may...I am left with a very odd feeling about this.
    Perhaps I am wrong, but I cannot possibly imagine that Swanson, in the position he was, as involved as he was in the 'Ripper' scene, would not have such a heavily suspected "suspect", (and the indication in the marginalia IS that he was heavily suspected)...would not refer to this man's full name. I cannot think of any reason why any policeman who wouldn't refer to a full name.

    Secondly. who in heaven's name was this 'Kosminski' anyway? We never see his name in the book in any other place, and now we have a name thrown at us as if we should know all about him. Only those savvy with the memoranda would actually know of the name. If he'd said 'the suspect's name was PAV' for example... ok. But Kosminski? We don't even have a first name here. But this is apparently an important suspect..suspected of being Jack the blooming Ripper!

    The argument could be made that Swanson could have forgotten it, but I think that's unlikely. We are talking JACK THE RIPPER here. No one, I suggest, would forget the whole name and every blooming detail attached to it. Especially not the top man at the centre of all the paperwork.
    If that was the Ripper, Swanson would remember every detail. Anyone would in that position.

    Deliberately NOT writing the first name perhaps? Unlikely. There would be no reason if only he was reading the notes made and it wasn't intended for others eyes.
    We do not know when the writing was made. Although in some editions of the A-Z the authors write that it occurred in or around 1910..which would be when the book was published (1910). So we can say 1910-1924, if Donald Swanson wrote the marginalia AND the end paper annotations, that is. To this untrained eye, there are differences between the two sets of handwriting.. but that's neither here nor there.

    These,and many many other things that have been noted by many others that make me doubt..just too much, that all here is as is seen. There is too much that is simply wrong. And the last line in the endpaper.. 'Kosminski was the suspect', is the complete opposite oif the previous references to the suspect. "The suspect was"..etc.

    best wishes

    Phil
    Last edited by Phil Carter; 06-27-2012, 07:16 PM.
    Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


    Justice for the 96 = achieved
    Accountability? ....

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    • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
      Hi All,

      House of Commons Parliamentary Papers.

      Departmental Committee upon Metropolitan Police Superannuation, 29th November 1889.

      Metropolitan Police Commissioner James Monro was the questioner in this exchange—

      2251: "You were employed in the Whitechapel cases?"

      [Swanson] "Yes."

      2252: "What were your hours then?"

      [Swanson] "I had to be at the office at half-past 8 in the morning; then I had to read through all the papers that had come in, which took me till 11 pm., and sometimes 1 and 2 in the morning; then I had to go to Whitechapel and see the officers—generally getting home between 2 and 3 am."

      2253: "How long did that go on?"

      [Swanson] "That went on from September till December."

      Regards,

      Simon
      Thanks for that Simon,

      However he was still on the circulation list in 96 and reviewing documentation. As the case was never closed it seems a prudent move to keep him in the loop on major developments.

      In other words, whilst Swansons employment ended directly on the case, he was still invoved in some capacity as the case file indicates.

      Monty
      Monty

      https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

      Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

      http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Monty View Post
        Thanks for that Simon,

        However he was still on the circulation list in 96 and reviewing documentation. As the case was never closed it seems a prudent move to keep him in the loop on major developments.

        In other words, whilst Swansons employment ended directly on the case, he was still invoved in some capacity as the case file indicates.

        Monty
        Hello Monty,

        Ok.. if we do as you suggest, would you please kindly explain to me the logic behind the man who is still in the loop knowing about Kosminski and yet still being part of the team that is out hunting Jack the Ripper? If Swanson knew of this supposed ID thing at the "Seaside Home".. and saw the man securely taken off to an asylum at some date or another.. why would the police, with Swanson involved, still be looking for and suspecting others of being Jack the Ripper? It wasn't supposed to be kept a blooming secret that they'd caught him, surely?

        best wishes

        Phil
        Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


        Justice for the 96 = achieved
        Accountability? ....

        Comment


        • And as a follow up to my previous post.. if the Kosminski emphasis is on the word "suspect" and not the "Ripper" in the endpaper annotations, then the argument doesn't hold water because apparently Jim Swanson wanted to show that the police were on top of the situation, and that Swanson's notes were expanding on Anderson's "fact" that the RIPPER was this Pole. So the emphasis of the Swanson writings is not on a suspect, but that Anderson's suspect, the killer according to Anderson, was Kosminski.

          best wishes

          Phil
          Last edited by Phil Carter; 06-27-2012, 08:03 PM.
          Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


          Justice for the 96 = achieved
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          • That is fairly obvious Phil,

            There is no arrest nor conviction. It continues.

            Nor is there any statement by Swanson, I believe, saying that he believed in the positive ID.

            I have many issues re the ID parade, and on a few points I agree with Trevor. However, to state the marginalia is a forgery with nothing more than opinion is wrong.

            If Trevor wants to discredit it then he should do it with a little more decorum and a little less lip. He should take a leaf out of Simon Woods book. His decimantion of the Knight theory is a prime example of how it should be done. Simon states and provides evidence, Trevor merely states and has a tantrum, often in bold text.

            As I've stated many times, question the evidence. That's not an issue, just support that with counter evidence instead of presenting a showmans stance of all glam and little substance.

            Trevor isn't the Messiah he thinks he is, he is just a very....

            Monty
            Monty

            https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

            Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

            http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

            Comment


            • The Truth

              Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
              Hi Paul,
              Sir Robert Anderson's evangelical Christianity and high regard for the truth has little to do with anything. He was in the wrong profession to adhere to such principles.

              Regards,Simon
              I never found a high regard for the truth, and the adherence to it as a principle, to be in any way incompatible with police service.

              Regards, Bridewell.
              I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

              Comment


              • Hello Monty,

                I don't follow any Messiah.. I make up my own mind. And I'll make no comment on personal opinion of how people are regarded. I'll stick to the point if I can.
                And I have in my previous three posts pointed out it's a "wrong-un". In near perfect timewise cricket parlance.. it's a "Bosie". I just cant understand why the emphasis on Kosminski holds water when the man suppoosedly still involved in the investigation, who later CONFIRMS and NAMES Anderson's "FACT".. would still be out hunting the Ripper if he KNEW that Anderson's killer was locked away.

                It's a wrong-un. The ID parade is non-sensical as there isnt another example of that type of thing ever happening before, or since (to our knowledge), when we have a prime example in Pizer, how exactly and where a suspect ID parade WAS made involving a suspect for the Whitechapel murders.

                It's a wrong-un. That is why, after having seen everything that has been written by many many experts in this field, I believe there is a great possibility that the annotations in the end paper were added long after Donald Swanson died. By whom? I have no idea. Why? Well only the guilty party can answer that if so.. but when the attention wasnt given by the NOTW in 1981, I suspect it was because the endpaper name wasnt there and it wasn't worth printing in that form.
                Its possible. I don't say its a fact...but its possible. People do all sorts of things to deceive in this game as we all know Monty. And at that period in Rippertime... playing wrong-uns was the name of the game.

                best wishes

                Phil
                Last edited by Phil Carter; 06-27-2012, 08:33 PM.
                Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                Justice for the 96 = achieved
                Accountability? ....

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Monty View Post
                  That is fairly obvious Phil,

                  There is no arrest nor conviction. It continues.

                  Nor is there any statement by Swanson, I believe, saying that he believed in the positive ID.
                  Hello Monty,

                  Then all I can say is this.

                  The only possible answer IF Swanson (Donald) wrote both the marginalia AND the annotations, is that Swanson was saying, when making this notes..
                  "What Anderson is getting at is this...his belief above surrounded a person known as Kosminski. It was Anderson's belief and his alone. He didnt know all the details of a supposed ID that Anderson had told him of, but what he did know was" ...etc etc. That way the marginalia is believable.. as an explanation, and expanded explanation of Anderson's beliefs. Nothing to do with Swanson's beliefs.
                  The only fly in this ointment is Jim Swanson declaring that the piece be made public to show Donald Swanson's part in the WM and how the police were in control of the situation. Then the idea of Swanson expanding Anderson's suspicion doesn't hold water.

                  I really am trying to see some sense in this.. but when all is seen and done.. I believe it's a wrong-un. On balance.

                  best wishes

                  Phil
                  Last edited by Phil Carter; 06-27-2012, 08:47 PM.
                  Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                  Justice for the 96 = achieved
                  Accountability? ....

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                  • Googlies!

                    In near perfect timewise cricket parlance.. it's a "Bosie". I just cant understand why the emphasis on Kosminski holds water when the man suppoosedly still involved in the investigation, who later CONFIRMS and NAMES Anderson's "FACT".. would still be out hunting the Ripper if he KNEW that Anderson's killer was locked away.
                    Hi Phil,

                    Firstly, as a leg spin bowler of no distinction whatsoever, I approve of the cricketing analogy. We call them googlies where I come from though! It only makes sense if he believed that Anderson's suspect was wrongly identified (but I agree that is not consistent with a common-sense interpretation of the marginalia) or if the belief was that more than one person was involved in the murders. (Cue Mr Cates )

                    Regards, Bridewell.
                    I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                      Hi Phil,

                      Firstly, as a leg spin bowler of no distinction whatsoever, I approve of the cricketing analogy. We call them googlies where I come from though! It only makes sense if he believed that Anderson's suspect was wrongly identified (but I agree that is not consistent with a common-sense interpretation of the marginalia) or if the belief was that more than one person was involved in the murders. (Cue Mr Cates )

                      Regards, Bridewell.
                      Hello Colin,

                      Googlies were originally called a "wrong-un" and a "Bosie", after Bosenquet, the bowler of the era 1896-1914.. I think Monty can confirm this, if I'm correct or not.
                      Errrm... if Jack was left handed.. does that make "Kosminski" a "Chinaman"? lol

                      best wishes

                      Phil
                      Last edited by Phil Carter; 06-27-2012, 08:55 PM.
                      Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                      Justice for the 96 = achieved
                      Accountability? ....

                      Comment


                      • I'm not saying you do Phil,

                        I'm merely pointing out that Trevor is a legend in his own lifetime, and making clear that his opinion that I steadfastly stand by the theories of old is a wrong one. I merely need more than bluster and misdirection.

                        I agree, there are issues, and I've said that. However you've followed you areguement up with words such as 'I believe' and 'I suspect'. There is nothing substantial other than personal conjecture.

                        The point is Anderson stated and event and Swanson backed it up. To dismiss Anderson Trevor is attacking the Swanson marginalia. Ok, fair play, however provide evidence, fact, something which catergorically dismisses it.

                        The thing has already been tested, and the results are clear. Trevor what's it retested. Good, that's great, however he has shot himself in the foot by placing unfounded allegations in public and wonders why the owners dont want to play.

                        The bottom line is they do not trust Trevor as he has shown himself to be that. He can accuse and stamp his feet all he likes. His lack of diplomacy has hamstrung his wishes.

                        He needs to change his tact.

                        Monty


                        PS Bosie is more an Australian term isn't it? I've always called is a wrong un or an in outer. Also known as a bugger bowled again, time for tea.

                        Yes, I agree with Colin, the analagy is a good one and one I cannot argue against whole heartedly
                        Last edited by Monty; 06-27-2012, 08:57 PM.
                        Monty

                        https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...t/evilgrin.gif

                        Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                        http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                        Comment


                        • Why Not?

                          Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
                          Hello Monty,

                          Then all I can say is this.

                          The only possible answer IF Swanson (Donald) wrote both the marginalia AND the annotations, is that Swanson was saying, when making this notes..
                          "What Anderson is getting at is this...his belief above surrounded a person known as Kosminski. It was Anderson's belief and his alone. He didnt know all the details of a supposed ID that Anderson had told him of, but what he did know was" ...etc etc. That way the marginalia is believable.. as an explanation, and expanded explanation of Anderson's beliefs. Nothing to do with Swanson's beliefs.
                          The only fly in this ointment is Jim Swanson declaring that the piece be made public to show Donald Swanson's part in the WM and how the police were in control of the situation. Then the idea of Swanson expanding Anderson's suspicion doesn't hold water.

                          best wishes

                          Phil
                          Hi Phil,

                          Jim Swanson doesn't have to be a fly in the ointment for this to make sense. He just has to be wrong in his interpretation of what DSS meant when he wrote the marginalia. It's not as though he'd be the only one is it!

                          As for the ID Procedure being irregular and improbable. It would be both of those, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it didn't happen that way. It certainly doesn't prove that it didn't.

                          Regards, Bridewell.
                          I won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Monty View Post
                            PS Bosie is more an Australian term isn't it? I've always called is a wrong un or an in outer. Also known as a bugger bowled again, time for tea.

                            Yes, I agree with Colin, the analagy is a good one and one I cannot argue against whole heartedly

                            Hello Monty, Colin,

                            just for the sake of the analogy.. I think the Aussies kept the name instead of googlies.



                            best wishes

                            Phil
                            Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                            Justice for the 96 = achieved
                            Accountability? ....

                            Comment


                            • most wanted?

                              Hello Colin. You rang? (heh-heh)

                              Cheers.
                              LC

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                                Hi Phil,

                                Jim Swanson doesn't have to be a fly in the ointment for this to make sense. He just has to be wrong in his interpretation of what DSS meant when he wrote the marginalia. It's not as though he'd be the only one is it!

                                As for the ID Procedure being irregular and improbable. It would be both of those, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it didn't happen that way. It certainly doesn't prove that it didn't.

                                Regards, Bridewell.
                                Hello Colin,

                                True re Jim Swanson.

                                Re the ID,, the evidence of how known ID parades were taken at the time make this possibility very unlikely.

                                best wishes

                                Phil
                                Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                                Justice for the 96 = achieved
                                Accountability? ....

                                Comment

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