Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Kosminski Shawl DNA published as peer reviewed paper in Journal of Forensic Sciences

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
    the fact that it's apparently silk, has a blue dye that would run if wet, and so it's hard to believe that Eddowes would own such a thing
    - Jeff
    Hi Jeff. Water soluble dies aren't suitable for shawls, but they are perfectly suitable for table runners, since they aren't meant to go out in the rain. Why do you refer to this as a shawl? Indeed, why does everyone refer to it as a shawl? What proof do we have that it is one? By referring it to a shawl, aren't the 'scientific' researchers mentally linking it to Kate Eddowes?

    As for Kosminski pleasuring himself at the crime scene, it gets worst than that. There is a lot of strange "Ripperological" theorizing imbedded in this "scientific" paper.

    The authors state that these stains --both blood and alleged semen-- conform to the known "modus operandi" of the Ripper. No explanation for this strange statement is given, but having read the paper several times, it is somewhat clear where Dr. L is heading.

    He and Edwards were given quite a bit of flak the first go around, because they didn't address the fact that there was no evidence of sexual "connection" at any of the crime scenes. Yet here again we have alleged semen on an alleged shawl allegedly found by Amos Simpson who was allegedly at the Mitre Square crime scene despite the fact that he was a Met officer stationed 25 miles away and this was a City of London crime scene.

    But we have a clue.

    Elsewhere in the paper, Drs. L and M speculate that there are the impressions of "internal organs" on this piece of cloth. Uh, this is odd stuff. If Amos Simpson "recovered" this alleged shawl from the crime scene (and Drs. L and M state that he DID) why are there impressions of internal organs on it? We have contemporary sketches of the victim in Mitre Square and she is surrounded by pools of blood. If Kosminski used this table runner as temporary place mat, it would be saturated with blood and gore. Further, Mr. Simpson and his wife make no mention of having found a kidney or a uterus wrapped up in this relic after he allegedly "recovered it" from the crime scene. So we can only conclude that these organ impressions come, not from Mitre Square, but from the Annie Chapman murder, which, in turn, suggests that Chapman and Eddowes shared the same mDNA observed by Drs. L and M.

    Further, the authors speculate near the close of the paper that the alleged shawl belonged, not to Eddowes, but to Kosminski himself. So now we are starting to see a clearer image of what is being implied, and what this reference to the "modus operandi" of the Ripper means. Kosminski, like a Thugee from India, was the owner of, not this "shawl" but a sort of 8' cravat. He strangled his victims with this ritual cloth, slit their throats, and then carried their organs home in it(shades of D'Onston Stephen's neck tie) where he completed his ritual in an unwholesome and solitary manner, creating the smaller stains. I can see no other explanation, since there was no actual evidence of sexual "connection" at the crime scenes themselves.

    A note on the alleged semen. The authors begin their paper by referring to it as "semen like" and elsewhere as "candidate sperm cells." Yet, by the end of paper, they have abandoned all caution and state outright that it is semen. And this, of course, was picked up on by the press, who all announce that semen it indeed was, and this is now repeated in several posts on this thread.

    Yet the only test actually referred to in the paper, was NEGATIVE.

    “The originality of the stains on the shawl was initially tested in several way to reveal any attempts to forge forensic stain patterns, for example, with an acid phosphatase test that proved negative, as would be expected for old semen stains.”

    The prostrate gland (among other things) produces the enzyme acid phosphatase, so testing for the presence of this enzyme is one way to determine if the stain was semen. The test, as noted above, proved negative, but the authors shrug this off as inconclusive, since they were old stains. (How do we know they were?) Perhaps they are right. Could be. Things degrade. But, on the other hand, it could also mean that it isn't semen at all. It may be. It may not be. But of, course, the press and various Ripperological commentators have latched on to the latter, evidently because Kosminski is famous for his solitary vices. Which brings me to my final point.

    Let me ask one simple question. Why was the alleged "shawl" only tested against Kosminski's relatives? Was this an objective way to go about things? I assume Edwards commissioned the original tests. Why didn't he test the stain against the relatives of Druitt, Cutbush, etc? Since mDNA cannot "match" a suspect (it is used for elimination purposes) isn't this stacking the deck? How do I know testing this against the great great grand niece of Monty Druitt or Tommy Cutbush wouldn't have left them in the frame?

    The authors have been "let off the hook" because this is a scientific paper, so they aren't required to touch on the historical aspects they discuss. I disagree. They state directly in their paper that it was meant, not only for scientists, but for "the general reader," especially those interested in "true crime." As such, the provenance of this object should have been given full disclosure. It is an 'in the family for years' sort of provenance, but there is no record of its existence until around 1988 or shortly thereafter. That the original owner is related to Amos Simpson is true. This is conceded. But this was in the distant past, raises its own concerns, and has left me wondering how Drs. L and M knew that old lady Simpson had cut a large section from the "shawl" because it was saturated with blood? At best, it can only be a family legend. At worst it is pure speculation.
    Last edited by rjpalmer; 03-20-2019, 04:36 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Well, buttons can be sewn on, but I was just trying to see if there was a way to reconcile the shawl with her listed belongings on the presumption that the smaller piece was the part cut away and left at Goulston Street, and so it also had to be possibly described as an apron. However, apparently there's a list of her possessions that lists the apron as being white, and that can't be the shawl, so now that house of cards falls down.

    It also makes it tricky, because if the shawl is genuine, that suggests that Kosminsky masterbated at the scene, and I can't fathom how he could have had time for that as well as the murder.

    However, if the mtDNA sequence was common among eastern European Jews, a match with Kosminsky simply means he's not excluded, but nor is it surprising. Also, since we know Eddowes was broke, but somehow made enough money to get drunk and thrown in gaol for a while, then it's possible she found a customer earlier in the day who was also of the eastern European Jewish community, and the stains are from that transaction and have nothing to do with her murder at all. (or, of course, the possibility of hoax, etc).

    Just trying on different hats for awhile. Soon I hope to find one that seems to fit.

    - Jeff
    And if the shawl was wrapped around her when do you suggest it was taken and given away? All possessions and property are usually bagged up and kept safe after being taken off the victim.

    Leave a comment:


  • jmenges
    replied
    Remember that “the shawl” is, when put together, 8 feet long and 2 feet wide. It’s nearly the size of a twin bed sheet. Given the use of adjectives like “large” on the itemized list of her clothing and possessions, if the shawl was at the scene I would expect it to be a bit more accurately described.

    JM

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    Just as well, because shawls don't have buttons or flounces ("ruffles"), but skirts can and do.
    Well, buttons can be sewn on, but I was just trying to see if there was a way to reconcile the shawl with her listed belongings on the presumption that the smaller piece was the part cut away and left at Goulston Street, and so it also had to be possibly described as an apron. However, apparently there's a list of her possessions that lists the apron as being white, and that can't be the shawl, so now that house of cards falls down.

    It also makes it tricky, because if the shawl is genuine, that suggests that Kosminsky masterbated at the scene, and I can't fathom how he could have had time for that as well as the murder.

    However, if the mtDNA sequence was common among eastern European Jews, a match with Kosminsky simply means he's not excluded, but nor is it surprising. Also, since we know Eddowes was broke, but somehow made enough money to get drunk and thrown in gaol for a while, then it's possible she found a customer earlier in the day who was also of the eastern European Jewish community, and the stains are from that transaction and have nothing to do with her murder at all. (or, of course, the possibility of hoax, etc).

    Just trying on different hats for awhile. Soon I hope to find one that seems to fit.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by jmenges View Post

    Her apron was listed among her possessions.
    • 1 piece of old white apron with repair

    Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown matched this apron, based on its repair, with the portion found in Goulston Street.

    “My attention was called to the apron, particularly the corner of the apron with a string attached. The blood spots were of recent origin. I have seen the portion of an apron produced by Dr. Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulston Street. It is impossible to say that it is human blood on the apron. I fitted the piece of apron, which had a new piece of material on it (which had evidently been sewn on to the piece I have), the seams of the borders of the two actually corresponding. Some blood and apparently faecal matter was found on the portion that was found in Goulston Street.”

    JM
    Ah, ok, that must come from a different list as it's not in the one from the previous post.

    If so, then that negates the "shawl wrapped around the middle", as now it can't also be described as an apron.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    How long does DNA remain fresh, though? I note that Dr JariLouhelainen defines DNA over 15 years old as "ancient", so that might have a bearing on matters. I myself was in the presence of the shawl nearly 15 years ago, although I don't think my DNA got onto it! If it had, I wonder how fragmented it would have become in the intervening years.
    Fair enough, and I can't answer that. I think it rules out, however, contamination from the recent family members as their DNA would be fresh. Also, they tested randomly selected sections of "areas without stains", and did not find DNA, they only found it in the stained sections.

    They report the frequency for the suspect mtDNA sequences as 1.9 x 10-2, so 0.019, which I'm presuming means about 2% of the population. So, there would be a sizable number of people that could match with the suspect sequences. My main concerns (other than some elaborate forgery) are that if this sequence was very common among eastern European Jews, like Kosminsky, then his family memeber matching it doesn't identify him per se (mitochondrial DNA isn't uniquely identifying, though it can exclude someone).

    At the moment I'm running with what they have reported despite my concerns over where the shawl came from, and the fact that it's apparently silk, has a blue dye that would run if wet, and so it's hard to believe that Eddowes would own such a thing as she couldn't afford it. Also, if it was silk, why didn't they pawn it rather than the boots? However, if the DNA holds up, then we've got some new constraints, and new information would be nice.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
    I'm not pushing "the skirt is definitely the shawl"
    Just as well, because shawls don't have buttons or flounces ("ruffles"), but skirts can and do.

    Leave a comment:


  • jmenges
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm
    The match isn't great, it's not a skirt, but as it also appears that one portion is supposed to be the piece found at Goulston Street, which is referred to as part of her "apron", I note there is no apron listed here either.

    [...]I'm not pushing "the skirt is definitely the shawl", just that it has some features in common (daisy's and yellow lily like patterns, etc), later might be referred to as an "apron", making it not quite a skirt nor an apron, but something that could be worn in such a way that either descriptor might be used[...]

    - Jeff
    Her apron was listed among her possessions.
    • 1 piece of old white apron with repair

    Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown matched this apron, based on its repair, with the portion found in Goulston Street.

    “My attention was called to the apron, particularly the corner of the apron with a string attached. The blood spots were of recent origin. I have seen the portion of an apron produced by Dr. Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulston Street. It is impossible to say that it is human blood on the apron. I fitted the piece of apron, which had a new piece of material on it (which had evidently been sewn on to the piece I have), the seams of the borders of the two actually corresponding. Some blood and apparently faecal matter was found on the portion that was found in Goulston Street.”

    JM
    Last edited by jmenges; 03-20-2019, 11:22 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Takod
    replied
    Originally posted by Trevor Marriott View Post
    when are we going to get a program or a book that tells the real truth?
    The A-Z is pretty good.

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
    Wearing at the time of her murder:
    • Black straw bonnet trimmed in green and black velvet with black beads. Black strings, worn tied to the head.
    • Black cloth jacket trimmed around the collar and cuffs with imitation fur and around the pockets in black silk braid and fur. Large metal buttons.
    • Dark green chintz skirt, 3 flounces, brown button on waistband. The skirt is patterned with Michaelmas daisies and golden lilies.
    • Man's white vest, matching buttons down front.
    • Brown linsey bodice, black velvet collar with brown buttons down front
    • Grey stuff petticoat with white waistband
    • Very old green alpaca skirt (worn as undergarment)
    • Very old ragged blue skirt with red flounces, light twill lining (worn as undergarment)
    • White calico chemise
    • No drawers or stays
    • Pair of men's lace up boots, mohair laces. Right boot repaired with red thread
    • 1 piece of red gauze silk worn as a neckerchief
    • 1 large white pocket handkerchief
    • 1 large white cotton handkerchief with red and white bird's eye border
    • 2 unbleached calico pockets, tape strings
    • 1 blue stripe bed ticking pocket
    • Brown ribbed knee stockings, darned at the feet with white cotton
    No mention of a Shawl. Also, wasn't most if not all City police archives/records lost in the blitz. Would this not be also true of the shawl, if there was one,[ I am assuming here it would be kept with their files/records on the murders].
    Regards Darryl
    The 3rd item listed, "Dark green chintz skirt, 3 flounces, brown button on waistband. The skirt is patterned with Michaelmas daisies and golden lilies", is the closest thing that would match the "shawl", so presumably she was wearing it wrapped around her. The "dark green" doesn't appear to match, and there's no button as far as I can see. However, it is noted that a portion of the shawl was cut off and discarded by Mrs. Simpson because it was so blood stained. The portion that would have been at the front around her midsection would be the most likely portion cut away, and also the most likely to contain the button. The match isn't great, it's not a skirt, but as it also appears that one portion is supposed to be the piece found at Goulston Street, which is referred to as part of her "apron", I note there is no apron listed here either.

    As with so much of the evidence, there's just enough here to tantalize and scrutinize, and depending upon how you squint, you see different things. I'm not pushing "the skirt is definitely the shawl", just that it has some features in common (daisy's and yellow lily like patterns, etc), later might be referred to as an "apron", making it not quite a skirt nor an apron, but something that could be worn in such a way that either descriptor might be used - and that starts sounding like something that could happen with the current shawl. It's kind of there and then disappears again; but then, sometimes you see what you want to see, and so if I'm looking to see if there is any evidence she had the shawl, I'm more likely to see it than if I were to look for it's absence, in which case I will see it is not listed. So like many things JtR, I'm not sure what I'm seeing in the end.

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Trevor Marriott
    replied
    Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post

    Yes, but also the tests they perform can detect if the DNA is "fresh", and from what they found they were confident the DNA they were testing was old (i.e. it was fragmented and created smaller chains, while fresh DNA remains fully intact and they get longer sequence matches).

    - Jeff
    In any event even without this shawl fiasco Aaron Kosminski`s status as Jack the Ripper is poorly deserved, and people should take note of this, but it seems all the other evidence that eliminates him get pushed to the back, especially when it cant be conclusively proved that the Kosminski referred to in an unreliable police memo of 1894 which started this Kosmniski frenzy is Aaron Kosminski, this shows the desperation to try to identify this killer known as Jack the Ripper especially by the press.

    Where is it going to end, next week there will be another book naming a suspect, with nothing to back it up, the week after another TV documentary all focusing on 5 and 5 only and again wanting to name a suspect where is it going to end when are we going to get a program or a book that tells the real truth?

    Oh I forgot there is a book !
    Click image for larger version

Name:	Jack the Ripper Poster.jpg
Views:	997
Size:	27.9 KB
ID:	703554https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper-Truth-Trevor-Marriott/dp/1728912997/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1535752176 &sr=8-2


    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    How long does DNA remain fresh, though? I note that Dr JariLouhelainen defines DNA over 15 years old as "ancient", so that might have a bearing on matters. I myself was in the presence of the shawl nearly 15 years ago, although I don't think my DNA got onto it! If it had, I wonder how fragmented it would have become in the intervening years.

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    As geneticist/archaeologist Dr Turi King recently observed, the shawl has been in the presence of the descendants of Kozminski and Eddowes, samples of whose DNA were used to compare against the shawl, and it's been handled by many people for decades. The possibility of cross-contamination can't therefore be ruled out, and this casts a serious shadow over the results even if the shawl isn't a deliberate forgery.
    Yes, but also the tests they perform can detect if the DNA is "fresh", and from what they found they were confident the DNA they were testing was old (i.e. it was fragmented and created smaller chains, while fresh DNA remains fully intact and they get longer sequence matches).

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • JeffHamm
    replied
    Originally posted by c.d. View Post
    I agree that the provenance of the shawl is pretty iffy at best and that the shawl has most likely been contaminated by a number of people handling it. Now I might be a bit naive as to the ways of the world but are there a lot of women's shawls out there that have semen on them?
    They did do tests for contamination, and as is common, they did find on the corners of the shawl markers for the owner and for one of the lab members, both people known to have handled it. However, no modern contamination was found in any of the samples gathered from the stains (blood and semen stains). Also,because DNA degrades over time, "fresh DNA" and "old DNA" respond differently in the testing phase (they can detect if the DNA is fragmenting into shorter chains, which old DNA does and fresh does not, etc). Of course, that doesn't exclude contamination at an earlier time point, but since they were extracting biological material from the blood stained area, and from the semen stains, to then find a 100% match to Eddowes' relation from the blood (all 6 of the tested markers that were present in her relation were also found in the blood stain, a pattern that would be shared by 0.13% (less than 1%) of the modern European population (they point out that given accurate census data including ethnicity is not available for 1888 London, this percentage value may not correspond to prevalence rates at the time). Still, it's becoming a stretch to suggest that on a blood stain they only found DNA from a contamination source and that source just happened by chance to have the same mtDNA sequence as the victim from whom the shawl is claimed to have belonged to at the time of their murder, etc.

    It's the suspect DNA match that I have more issue with. They found semen stains on the small portion of the shawl (not clear if they were on the larger portion as well), and that provided a partial match to Kosminsky's relation. However, while the Eddowes match was 100% correspondence (6 markers present, 18 absent for the relation, and the same 6 present and 18 absent found in the blood stain), there were 9 markers present and 15 absent for the relation, but only 7 markers present and 17 absent for the semen stains (but the 7 were 7 of the 9 present). That means there were two markers present in the relative that were not present in the semen. I've queried the author on that, as it appears that 2 mismatches (like we have) is the criterion by which mtDNA excludes someone, but one of the statements about their data leaves open the possibility that the two mismatches were simply because the signal was "sort of there, but too weak to confirm", and that could be explained by the age of the sample as the associated difficulties in doing DNA work with such material. Other interpretations lead to excluding Kosminsky specifically, but might be sufficient to determine the ancestral background of JtR (i.e. eastern European). The nuclear DNA that they obtained found markers for brown eyes and brown hair, so if we have details about any suspect's hair and/or eye colour, if those aren't brown, one could probably cross them off the list (but I would recommend using a pencil )

    - Jeff

    Leave a comment:


  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    As geneticist/archaeologist Dr Turi King recently observed, the shawl has been in the presence of the descendants of Kozminski and Eddowes, samples of whose DNA were used to compare against the shawl, and it's been handled by many people for decades. The possibility of cross-contamination can't therefore be ruled out, and this casts a serious shadow over the results even if the shawl isn't a deliberate forgery.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X