Kosminski Shawl DNA published as peer reviewed paper in Journal of Forensic Sciences

[Fisherman]

Laughable fits the story well.

but it doesn’t clear Kos, it is the shawl theory that’s laughable, Aaron remains what he was before all this shawl nonsense kicked off, I can’t believe that anyone buys it.

I note that some say that Kosminskis viability is raised by the shawl business. If anything, being coupled to that sort of thing should make people smell a rat. Which, as you say, would not be fair either!

[JeffHamm]

I recommend listening to the pod-cast on the shawl and the published paper (https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...ssor-turi-king). There are some serious questions concerning the analysis and results. The methodological details on the dna typing, etc, as presented are incomplete, making it hard for experts to evaluate what was done or what was found. In particular, it appears from what was presented there are some serious concerns (one being that when the sequencing was done in one direction they get a different result from when it is done in the other - that's a problem because whether you read a string of letters forwards or backwards, you should end up with the same conclusion and get the same string of letter i.e. if I read ABCD forwards I should get ABCD and backwards I should get DCBA, which is ABCD backwards). The sequencing in the paper doesn't get the same result, so that points to some sort of problem, and not one that can be explained by the age of the sample, apparently - it suggests something wasn't done properly.

There were also concerns about the fact there are two mismatches between the suspect material and the Kosminsky reference sample (their maternal descendant). And the issue of contamination was mentioned a lot. Peer review is supposed to catch these kind of issues, and reviewers should have been asking for more details on the methodology. The concern over publishing mtDNA sequences of living people was noted as "this is not really a problem as 1) mtDNA does not individuate people and 2) this can be done provided the donors are fully informed and consent to that information being made public. And, given the importance of the sequences (finding a match but only in really common sequences would be quite different from finding a match in a very rare mutation, for example), this really should have been done.

- Jeff

[Tonylondon]

I have worked in the court service for years and seen cases collapse for the mishandling of evidence in modern times so would not for a minute try and judge the handling of a scene of crime item from over a130 years ago
if There is an item of clothing proven to have dna that matches relatives of both Kominski and Eddowes on it along with 3 senior officers indirectly or directly ascertaining the guilt of Kominski i think that is strong evidence despite unclear provenance of the shawl

[GUT]

The autopsies said habitually in all the Ripper cases that there were "no traces of recent connection", and that will have meant basically that there was no semen present on or in the female body. Sadly, that does not rule out that Kosminski could have ejaculated over the shawl after the deed, so in that respect, we must accept the possibility of semen stains from Kosminski present on the shawl.

However! If - which I do not believe at all - the shawl WAS present at the murder site, and IF - which I don´t believe either - it WAS found by Amos Simpson, it would present entirely new levels of incompetence if the shawl was not passed on to the case investigators for scrutinizing, in which case the semen stains would reasonably have been detected. The bloodstains alone would be reason enough not to lift the shawl out of the investigation and turn it into a gift for a policemans wife, a policeman who was probably never anywhere near the scene in the fist place.

The whole suggestion is - at best - laughable.

Laughable fits the story well.

but it doesn’t clear Kos, it is the shawl theory that’s laughable, Aaron remains what he was before all this shawl nonsense kicked off, I can’t believe that anyone buys it.

[Fisherman]

I genuinely believe that this is the solution to the mystery Aaron Kosminski was Jack the Ripper. For a case well over 100 years old no suspects evidence is going to be perfect. The overall evidence in my opinion is stronger than any other suspect.
Fisherman I have worked in the criminal justice system for years and some levels of incompetence need to be seen to be believed!

I´m sure that is true - but when that fact is offered to incriminate somebody and accuse him for murder, I am inclined to say thanks, but no thanks.

[Tonylondon]

I genuinely believe that this is the solution to the mystery Aaron Kosminski was Jack the Ripper. For a case well over 100 years old no suspects evidence is going to be perfect. The overall evidence in my opinion is stronger than any other suspect.
Fisherman I have worked in the criminal justice system for years and some levels of incompetence need to be seen to be believed!

[Fisherman]

Well autopsy said no signs of congress, so I guess if you think intercourse did take place, you are right and you can let the mind think what you want, but if you follow the evidence it didn’t, I know which I prefer, but then I’m a sucker for what evidence we have.

The autopsies said habitually in all the Ripper cases that there were "no traces of recent connection", and that will have meant basically that there was no semen present on or in the female body. Sadly, that does not rule out that Kosminski could have ejaculated over the shawl after the deed, so in that respect, we must accept the possibility of semen stains from Kosminski present on the shawl.

However! If - which I do not believe at all - the shawl WAS present at the murder site, and IF - which I don´t believe either - it WAS found by Amos Simpson, it would present entirely new levels of incompetence if the shawl was not passed on to the case investigators for scrutinizing, in which case the semen stains would reasonably have been detected. The bloodstains alone would be reason enough not to lift the shawl out of the investigation and turn it into a gift for a policemans wife, a policeman who was probably never anywhere near the scene in the fist place.

The whole suggestion is - at best - laughable.

[Busy Beaver]

I am saying that Aaron Kosminski may have been a client of Eddowes weeks or months before JTR hit the headlines, but did not have full or any S.I. and her shawl,clothing got contaminated by other ways. AK was known to have been a fan of Mrs Palmer and her 5 lovely daughters.

[GUT]

Can we be 100% sure of this ?!

And that was not the point, yet we have the so called shawl, that happened to have mDNA that match both Eddows and Kosminski.

Do with this piece of Information whatever you want.

Imagination can take us everywhere, we have seen researchers that bieleve the name Kosminski was a mistake, although we have it written by two of the three police heads of the time, instead the name must have been Levy, Kamnski, Hayam, Cohen.....

We have even researchers that claim the witness was not a jew!

And then came the new generations of ripperologists, to say this identification didn't even take place.


You cannot stop a beautiful mind!


The Baron

Well autopsy said no signs of congress, so I guess if you think intercourse did take place, you are right and you can let the mind think what you want, but if you follow the evidence it didn’t, I know which I prefer, but then I’m a sucker for what evidence we have.

[The Baron]

How about that the deceased had no signs of intercourse.

Can we be 100% sure of this ?!

And that was not the point, yet we have the so called shawl, that happened to have mDNA that match both Eddows and Kosminski.

Do with this piece of Information whatever you want.

Imagination can take us everywhere, we have seen researchers that bieleve the name Kosminski was a mistake, although we have it written by two of the three police heads of the time, instead the name must have been Levy, Kamnski, Hayam, Cohen.....

We have even researchers that claim the witness was not a jew!

And then came the new generations of ripperologists, to say this identification didn't even take place.


You cannot stop a beautiful mind!


The Baron

[GUT]

Do you mean that the first suspect in the case, who was identified, could have been innocent, and just happened to contact Eddows before the ripper even came ?!

Sure.. why not, everything is possible, I can imagine more than this, that Druitt too contacted Eddows before both of them Kosminski and the ripper.. Or that Ostrog escaped from his prison in france, came to Whitechapel, contacted Eddows, then came Druitt, then Kosminski, before the ripper striked.

Nothing can disprove this.

The Baron

How about that the deceased had no signs of intercourse.

[The Baron]

Could Catherine have solicited Aaron and her "shawl" became contaminated from this interlude, before the Ripper even comes into the picture? Or are the results relatively conclusive- Aaron Kosminski was Jack the Ripper.

Do you mean that the first suspect in the case, who was identified, could have been innocent, and just happened to contact Eddows before the ripper even came ?!

Sure.. why not, everything is possible, I can imagine more than this, that Druitt too contacted Eddows before both of them Kosminski and the ripper.. Or that Ostrog escaped from his prison in france, came to Whitechapel, contacted Eddows, then came Druitt, then Kosminski, before the ripper striked.

Nothing can disprove this.

The Baron

[KRS]

Could Catherine have solicited Aaron and her "shawl" became contaminated from this interlude, before the Ripper even comes into the picture? Or are the results relatively conclusive- Aaron Kosminski was Jack the Ripper.

Certainly. We would not be following the economy principle if we did, more recent contamination would be more likely I would think, but it's not impossible.

[Fisherman]

The shawl? Again? Really?

[Busy Beaver]

Could Catherine have solicited Aaron and her "shawl" became contaminated from this interlude, before the Ripper even comes into the picture? Or are the results relatively conclusive- Aaron Kosminski was Jack the Ripper.