JTR as a disorganized schizophrenic lust murderer

[Pontius2000]

Hello Pontius. I wonder whether it would be helpful to get clear on the ways in which one may beorganised or disorganised?

I took this from this website: http://www.helium.com/items/666219-o...serial-killers


Organized:
The organized offender leads an orderly life that is reflected in the way he commits his crimes. He is said to be of average to high intelligence, socially competent, and more likely than the disorganized offender to have skilled employment. In many instances, he lives with a girlfriend or is married. He may even be a father. He will plan his offense before the opportunity arises often for weeks, months, and even years before acting. He is aware of his growing compulsion to act out his murderous desire. He will typically use restraints on the victim, and bring a weapon with him, which he will then take with him when he leaves. Typically, the organized offender leaves three crime scenes: Where the victim is confronted, where the victim is killed, and where the victim's body is disposed of (Vronsky, 2004).


Disorganized:
In contrast to the organized killer, the crime scene of the disorganized offender is described as reflecting an overall sense of disorder and suggests little, if any, preplanning of the murder. He, too, is difficult to catch because while the organized offender is predictable in some way, the disorganized offender is very much not. He has vague and intense murderous fantasies, but he does not develop a thought-out plan of action. The disarray present at the crime scene may include evidence such as blood, semen, and the murder weapon. There is minimal use of retrains because the victim is usually rendered unconscious moments after encountering the disorganized offender. This is thought to be because the offender is aware of his inability to interact with the victim. The body is often displayed in open view, is usually left where the confrontation took place, and is often subjected to extraordinary mutilation. The disorganized offender is often times still living with parents or guardians, and to have a below-average intelligence. The killer is usually unemployed or unskilled, does not own a car, and kills near his home (Vronsky, 2004).

[lynn cates]

disambiguation

Hello Pontius. I wonder whether it would be helpful to get clear on the ways in which one may beorganised or disorganised?

Perhaps we could make a chess player's distinction between strategy and tactics.

Strategy has to do with long term planning (control of the centre of the board, developing knights before bishops, developing with a threat, trading material when ahead).

Tactics involves the short term (various combinations as knight or pawn fork, pins, and so on).

As I read the evidence, it seems to me that Polly and Annie were killed by someone strategically disorganised but tactically organised.

On the other hand, Kate and MJ seemed to succumb to one who was strategically organised but tactically disorganised.

To put it another way, it seems that Polly and Annie met their assailant randomly; but, when the time came for the knife, he knew what he was about.

Kate and MJ seemed NOT to have random encounters; but, the knife work was maladept.

See what I mean?

Cheers.
LC

[Pontius2000]

So you think the Ripper simply went out with a knife and butchered the first woman who took him behind a corner...and did this repeatedly without ever being spotted in the act, or questioned into confessing...and did so repeatedly? You'll fit in with a great number of the minimalists on these boards, Mr. Pilate. They share your faith in luck and coincidence.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

by "repeatedly", you mean 5 times in a 3 month period. had he not died, moved, or been incarcerated he would likely have continued and been caught. he may have been caught at #6, or it may have been #20 but there is no question that JTR was very lucky and luck eventually runs out.

[Pontius2000]

why do you think the killer was disorganised and a crazed Schitzo ? because he's definitely not somebody like Kosminski, he's more like W.Bury/ G. Chapman, i.e Evil but not insane.

Kosminski is exactly like a ``care in the community nutter`` he's as harmless as a baby, he's the type that you see wondering into A&E on a saturday afternoon, he's halucinating because he's forgotten to take his drugs and right now he's talking to the Nazareen.

this type would never be able to chat up MJK or even Eddowes/Stride, they'd see straight though him.... they'd tell him to move along! Kosminski is way too off the scale to be JTR

why JTR mutilates is not known and i wouldn't bother to think why right now, because i can not get inside the killers mind well enough to suss this out.

JTR controlls everything he does very carefully, he is totally observent of eveything that's going on around him, he lost his temper with regards to Stride, but yet again this proves how human he was.

He is also not sadistic, barbaric or hateful, like Bundy or Sutcliffe, he tries not to cause too much pain to his victims and this is very rare indeed

no one on this board is in a position to say what JTR "definitely" was or was not. and he is more likely to be someone like Kosminski than Bury or Chapman, sorry.

he's not "harmless as a baby" because he took up a knife and threatened his sister and several points of being excitable and violent while in asylums. He also didn't wander into the court in 1889 hallucinating while answering the charge for walking an unmuzzled dog, despite the fact that he already had schizophrenia.

there are also MANY cases of schizophrenic serial killers who socialize with their victims before killing them.

there is also nothing rare about a serial killer killing quickly and then doing extensive postmortem damage. in fact, this is the calling card of a lust murderer.

[Malcolm X]

why do you think the killer was disorganised and a crazed Schitzo ? because he's definitely not somebody like Kosminski, he's more like W.Bury/ G. Chapman, i.e Evil but not insane.

Kosminski is exactly like a ``care in the community nutter`` he's as harmless as a baby, he's the type that you see wondering into A&E on a saturday afternoon, he's halucinating because he's forgotten to take his drugs and right now he's talking to the Nazareen.... he is not a violent Schizo, his madness is different, it's much more hands on and totally unpredictable, this is also due to not taking his drugs either, in my opinion this type is not safe to be in the community and should be locked up all the time, just like 100 years ago.

this type would never be able to chat up MJK or even Eddowes/Stride, they'd see straight though him.... they'd tell him to move along! thus Kosminski is way too off the scale to be JTR and a violent Schizo would make far more of a mess of the body/ make more noise and be seen far more often/ covered in blood etc.

JTR controlls everything he does very carefully, he is totally observent of eveything that's going on around him, yes he lost his temper with regards to Stride, but yet again this proves how human he was.

He is also not sadistic, barbaric or hateful, like Bundy or Sutcliffe, he tries not to cause too much pain to his victims and this is quite rare.

i.e you dont see him kicking/ stamping on his victims, or smashing their heads in with a baseball bat/ claw hammer in order to kill them..... thank God, because this is flipping miles worst..... JTR is seen to be hideous because of these mutilations, but these are all post mortem and no worst than an Autopsy.

but JTR toys with his knife, so this is disturbing indeed, but it's more like a moronic imbecilic trance, most odd.

i was attacked by a Schizo too, at Southampton train station, he saw me as Satan and went flipping ballistic, it's moments like this that you wish that you had a .44 magnum, this guy was taken away by the police, he is nothing like JTR; who is as mentally stable as you and i, just seriously screwed up instead.

[niko]

A terrible incident.

Hi everyone, forgive me for goinig off thread, but I think this could be of interest. On Monday a thirty one year old Irainian immigrant came out of the metro (tube) station in Bilbao and started insulting the passersby. He stopped a couple and started insulting the woman, he then slapped her in the face very hard, when the husband tried to defend his wife and told the man he would call the police, the Irainian pulled out a seventeen cm long bladed kitchen knife from his jacket, on seeing this the man ran away down the street but the knife man was faster and caught him, and started stabbing him. The woman attacked the knife man whilst he was stabbing her husband on the floor, the knife man then started to stab her.

The knifeman then continued down the street lashing his knife at the passersby. He tried to enter a small super market but the shopkeeper fought him off with the iron rod he uses to lower the shop-shutter's. The knifeman then entered a bar and attacked the customer's, (in all this the Iranian man was shouting "you killed my family, I will kill you all") one of the pub customer who was having breakfast at the time he was a sixty-six year old retired school teacher was stabed who died from fatel stab wound's to the stomach.

Two of the pub customer's attacked the knifeman with floor-tile's they found on the street and were able to retain the knifeman untill the police arrived. The result's of the attack was one dead and six injured, in the attack it is rumored that apparently he asisted up to two hundred stab wound's.

The attacker was taken to hospital the psychiatric section and then taken into police custody. There are rumor's that the attacker was schizophrenic, he lived with his brother in another part of Bilbao, the neighbour's say that they were both educated people and seemed polite.

I write this above in answer to the question on post No.1. by Pontius2000, "wouldn't he be just as likely to attack a random person on the street in broad daylight ?"

If Jack was schizophrenic, I think he was very well disciplined, if that's the word, very clever or just lucky.

I might be wrong, but I think we cannot put all the schizophrenic's in the same boat. All the best, Agur.

niko

[niko]

A terrible incident.

Hi everyone, forgive me for goinig off thread, but I think this could be of interest. On Monday a thirty one year old Irainian immigrant came out of the metro (tube) station in Bilbao and started insulting the passersby. He stopped a couple and started insulting the woman, he then slapped her in the face very hard, when the husband tried to defend his wife and told the man he would call the police, the Irainian pulled out a seventeen cm long bladed kitchen knife from his jacket, on seeing this the man ran away down the street but the knife man was faster and caught him, and started stabbing him. The woman attacked the knife man whilst he was stabbing her husband on the floor, the knife man then started to stab her.

The knifeman then continued down the street lashing his knife at the passersby. He tried to enter a small super market but the shopkeeper fought him off with the iron rod he uses to lower the shop-shutter's. The knifeman then entered a bar and attacked the customer's, (in all this the Iranian man was shouting "you killed my family, I will kill you all") one of the pub customer who was having breakfast at the time he was a sixty-six year old retired school teacher was stabed who died from fatel stab wound's to the stomach.

Two of the pub customer's attacked the knifeman with floor-tile's they found on the street and were able to retain the knifeman untill the police arrived. The result's of the attack was one dead and six injured, in the attack it is rumored that apparently he asisted up to two hundred stab wound's.

The attacker was taken to hospital the psychiatric section and then taken into police custody. There are rumor's that the attacker was schizophrenic, he lived with his brother in another part of Bilbao, the neighbour's say that they were both educated people and seemed polite.

I write this above in answer to the question on post No.1. by Pontius2000, "wouldn't he be just as likely to attack a random person on the street in broad daylight ?"

If Jack was schizophrenic, I think he was very well disciplined, if that's the word, very clever or just lucky.

I might be wrong, but I think we cannot put all the schizophrenic's in the same boat. All the best, Agur.

niko

[Barnaby]

Just because someone is diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia doesn't mean that they will end up naked eating garbage out of a gutter. Plenty of schizophrenics out there who are obsessive, ritualistic, and perfectionist.

[Tom_Wescott]

So you think the Ripper simply went out with a knife and butchered the first woman who took him behind a corner...and did this repeatedly without ever being spotted in the act, or questioned into confessing...and did so repeatedly? You'll fit in with a great number of the minimalists on these boards, Mr. Pilate. They share your faith in luck and coincidence.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Pontius2000]

He killed a bunch of women on the street in a very gruesome way and got away with it. He planned, was prepared, knew what he was doing, and no one caught him in the act. That's a little bit of luck and a whole lot of preparation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I'd say more like A LOT of luck with the main preparation being that he had a weapon on him for when the opportunity may present itself.

[Tom_Wescott]

He killed a bunch of women on the street in a very gruesome way and got away with it. He planned, was prepared, knew what he was doing, and no one caught him in the act. That's a little bit of luck and a whole lot of preparation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Pontius2000]

I don't agree that the WM were not disorganized. at best, mixed. There's nothing really about them that says to me that they were organized.

[Pontius2000]

But, I don't think that 'most people' see Kosminski as the Ripper.

Regards, Jon S.

Nor did I say that most people agree that Kosminski was JTR.

[Tom_Wescott]

JTR was definitely not 'disorganized'. That's John Douglas voodoo talk. Not sure about the lust murderer thing, either.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Wickerman]

Most people agree that Kosminki was schizophrenic. and most people agree that the JTR killings were lust murders....

But, I don't think that 'most people' see Kosminski as the Ripper.

Regards, Jon S.