JTR as a disorganized schizophrenic lust murderer

[Pontius2000]

Hi Pontius
The problem with that is that both JtR and Torso murders are unsolved, meaning we have no idea if they were by the same person, which is where these goofy categories of "organized" or "disorganized" can be totally misleading by trying to dump a killer into one or the other.

You bring up Ted Bundy- his crimes were mainly "organized" but some of his attacks in the beginning and mainly his attacks at the end in FL (the murders in the Chi Omega sorority and a nearby apartment) would be classic "disorganized" category. If Bundy was never caught and these crimes remained unsolved, one might mistakenly think based on the categories that they were from two different killers.

You see serial killers can show signs of both categories at the same time (JtR) and even one category one time and the other at a different time (Bundy). Which by the way you failed to mention the FBI has a third category along with organized and disorganized labeled "Mixed"-showing traits of both-hows that for ambiguous?

I would not place too much faith in these overly broad, vague and outdated categories when trying to match them up with specific killers. If you must label JtR, the best one would probably be Hedonistic Lust Killer (Holmes, Holmes, DeBurger.)

no, we don't know if they were by the same hand or not. most people believe they were two or more different killers. I myself have gone back and forth on Elizabeth Jackson's potential candidacy as a JTR victim. but there's no doubt that the torso murders were more organized that the recognized JTR murders.

Ted Bundy is widely agreed upon to be an organized killer, one of the most organized ever in fact. it's believed that he began killing in the 60s and those murders are not solved, which would be more organized murders, or as he said himself, before he was in his "prime" as a killer. the Florida killings were less organized than most of his other killings, but not completely disorganized either.

I did mention in a previous post in this thread that JTR was either disorganized, or at best, mixed. however, I don't agree at all that the crimes were organized or completely organized. I think that's more people wanting JTR to be something he was not to meet their romanticized view of him.

[Pontius2000]

Several aspects of the Ripper crimes suggest a lust murderer, probably one who was mostly disorganized (for what its worth). The mutilation targeting the sexual organs, evisceration and taking of organs (and probable cannibalism) are hallmarks of a lust murderer (post-mortem mutilator.) And in many cases, serial killers like this are schizophrenic.

Thanks for replying Rob. You are one who could maybe answer the original question best.....could a disorganized schizophrenic lust murderer be able to target a specific group of victims or would he be just as likely to attack a random person on the street in broad daylight with numerous witnesses.

[Abby Normal]

Several aspects of the Ripper crimes suggest a lust murderer, probably one who was mostly disorganized (for what its worth). The mutilation targeting the sexual organs, evisceration and taking of organs (and probable cannibalism) are hallmarks of a lust murderer (post-mortem mutilator.) And in many cases, serial killers like this are schizophrenic.

Hi Rob

And in many cases, serial killers like this are schizophrenic
but most are not (ex-Bundy, Kemper, brudos).

But thats the problem with trying to label and profile serial killers into categories-Human beings are too complex.

Having personally lived through the Beltway Sniper killings and how bad the profilers hosed that up, which may have lead to the police looking for the exact opposite kind of killer and prolonging the murders, I dont have too much faith in it.

Just my opinion- and I am going to drop out of this discussion.

[lynn cates]

sound

Hello Abby.

"I would not place too much faith in these overly broad, vague and outdated categories when trying to match them up with specific killers."

Very sound exhortation, Abby.

Cheers.
LC

[Abby Normal]

organized killers in those days were able to kill and dispose of bodies in private (ie, the torso murders) just like they do in modern times (ala Ted Bundy). So I don't agree that he may have only appeared in part to be disorganized because of his circumstances when it's clear that organized killer(s) were at work at the very same time and area that he was operating in.

Hi Pontius
The problem with that is that both JtR and Torso murders are unsolved, meaning we have no idea if they were by the same person, which is where these goofy categories of "organized" or "disorganized" can be totally misleading by trying to dump a killer into one or the other.

You bring up Ted Bundy- his crimes were mainly "organized" but some of his attacks in the beginning and mainly his attacks at the end in FL (the murders in the Chi Omega sorority and a nearby apartment) would be classic "disorganized" category. If Bundy was never caught and these crimes remained unsolved, one might mistakenly think based on the categories that they were from two different killers.

You see serial killers can show signs of both categories at the same time (JtR) and even one category one time and the other at a different time (Bundy). Which by the way you failed to mention the FBI has a third category along with organized and disorganized labeled "Mixed"-showing traits of both-hows that for ambiguous?

I would not place too much faith in these overly broad, vague and outdated categories when trying to match them up with specific killers. If you must label JtR, the best one would probably be Hedonistic Lust Killer (Holmes, Holmes, DeBurger.)

[robhouse]

Several aspects of the Ripper crimes suggest a lust murderer, probably one who was mostly disorganized (for what its worth). The mutilation targeting the sexual organs, evisceration and taking of organs (and probable cannibalism) are hallmarks of a lust murderer (post-mortem mutilator.) And in many cases, serial killers like this are schizophrenic.

[Pontius2000]

The perpatrators specific circumstances of time and place will obviously affect how to assess a crime scene and those descriptions probably dont take into account circumstances of 100 years ago.

organized killers in those days were able to kill and dispose of bodies in private (ie, the torso murders) just like they do in modern times (ala Ted Bundy). So I don't agree that he may have only appeared in part to be disorganized because of his circumstances when it's clear that organized killer(s) were at work at the very same time and area that he was operating in.

[Fleetwood Mac]

I'd say more like A LOT of luck with the main preparation being that he had a weapon on him for when the opportunity may present itself.

I'd agree that he didn't need to have had much planning about him at all.

I think there was always a good chance of him getting away with it, based on the context of police procedure being in its infancy.

Look at the Yorkshire Ripper, nearly 100 years on and the police struggled to catch him after 13.

Jack would more or less have had to have been caught red handed, which suggests that actually he would have been unlucky to have been caught.

[Abby Normal]

of course he did not have a car. the fact that he took organs away from 3 victims points to the probability that he DID have a private or semi-private residence.

the main differences between the two are crime scenes, not car or residence.

The perpatrators specific circumstances of time and place will obviously affect how to assess a crime scene and those descriptions probably dont take into account circumstances of 100 years ago.

[K-453]

How much worth is preparation and planning when Jack is killing in streets where somebody could turn around the corner at any time, and under windows where somebody could peep out at any time?

He just could not plan what would happen around him while he was commiting his crimes. He only could make educated guesses - and keep his senses wide open.

To me, it looks like he relied more on his instincts than on his intelligence. He was not dumb, but subordinated intelligence to instincts.

I read in a book serial killers with intelligence higher than average are caught after four years, but serial killers with intelligence below average are caught after eight years. This being average values.

Intelligence only complicates things.

Remember how smart 'dumb' people can be. They easily outwit very bright persons with university education. Children outwit adults. It has something to do with qualms, with rather watching a person than listening to his or her words, and with thinking of the nearest future only instead of long-term planning.

Modern cities are populated by wild animals, who find a comfortable hunting ground there. Most of these animals are never seen by the thousands of humans living there! One should think it is impossible, but they find niches to hide away, and they know exactly when the coast is clear.

[Pontius2000]

Hi Pontius
I think the traits that are shown in the disorganized killer definition above that are similar to JtR have more to do with the circumstances at the time in that the killer did not have a car or perhaps even a private residence.

of course he did not have a car. the fact that he took organs away from 3 victims points to the probability that he DID have a private or semi-private residence.

the main differences between the two are crime scenes, not car or residence.

[Abby Normal]

I took this from this website: http://www.helium.com/items/666219-o...serial-killers


Organized:
The organized offender leads an orderly life that is reflected in the way he commits his crimes. He is said to be of average to high intelligence, socially competent, and more likely than the disorganized offender to have skilled employment. In many instances, he lives with a girlfriend or is married. He may even be a father. He will plan his offense before the opportunity arises often for weeks, months, and even years before acting. He is aware of his growing compulsion to act out his murderous desire. He will typically use restraints on the victim, and bring a weapon with him, which he will then take with him when he leaves. Typically, the organized offender leaves three crime scenes: Where the victim is confronted, where the victim is killed, and where the victim's body is disposed of (Vronsky, 2004).


Disorganized:
In contrast to the organized killer, the crime scene of the disorganized offender is described as reflecting an overall sense of disorder and suggests little, if any, preplanning of the murder. He, too, is difficult to catch because while the organized offender is predictable in some way, the disorganized offender is very much not. He has vague and intense murderous fantasies, but he does not develop a thought-out plan of action. The disarray present at the crime scene may include evidence such as blood, semen, and the murder weapon. There is minimal use of retrains because the victim is usually rendered unconscious moments after encountering the disorganized offender. This is thought to be because the offender is aware of his inability to interact with the victim. The body is often displayed in open view, is usually left where the confrontation took place, and is often subjected to extraordinary mutilation. The disorganized offender is often times still living with parents or guardians, and to have a below-average intelligence. The killer is usually unemployed or unskilled, does not own a car, and kills near his home (Vronsky, 2004).

Hi Pontius
I think the traits that are shown in the disorganized killer definition above that are similar to JtR have more to do with the circumstances at the time in that the killer did not have a car or perhaps even a private residence.

[Abby Normal]

He killed a bunch of women on the street in a very gruesome way and got away with it. He planned, was prepared, knew what he was doing, and no one caught him in the act. That's a little bit of luck and a whole lot of preparation.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

He planned, was prepared, knew what he was doing, and no one caught him in the act. That's a little bit of luck and a whole lot of preparation.

Totally agree.

[Pontius2000]

Hello Pontius. Well, I like the part about no car.

Now, if only we could find a serial killer . . . .

Cheers.
LC

that was pretty much the selling point for me. If we just had enough remaining documentation to determine whether or not Kosminski had a car and a good driving record, we'd be on the trail.

[lynn cates]

cars

Hello Pontius. Well, I like the part about no car.

Now, if only we could find a serial killer . . . .

Cheers.
LC