discussion of Aaron Kosminski's psychological profile

[Pontius2000]

Hi All,
Lets not forget that in the Autumn of 1889 a year after Mary Kelly"s murder, Aaron Kosminski was walking the dog around Cheapside .We know this because the dog he was walking didnt have the recently,legally required muzzle on so Aaron was taken to court.
Once Aaron Kosminski had been incarcerated,he was diagnosed as "not being a danger [B]to others[/B.

Let's also not forget that Mary Kelly was not the last woman murdered in the East end of London between 1888 and the end of 1891. Serial killers don't walk dogs, is that your argument.

Also, if you have the report from which your "not a danger to others" quote came from, I'd like to see that.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Pontius,Its now available in several books.The first time I happened to read it was in Paul Beggs The Facts.

Serial killers don't walk dogs, is that your argument.

Dont be silly . The point being that to have stopped for over a year ---presumably without medication ,and been at liberty throughout, seems a rather unlikely candidate for Jack the Ripper.
What other women do you mean that were murdered before his incarceration?

[robhouse]

"Whether dangerous to others and in what way: No"

This comes from a form called "Statement of Particulars" that was filled out and signed by Maurice Whitfield, Hamlet of Mile End Old Town Relieving Officer, in February 1891. The information from this form was then copied into the Male Patients Day Book, New Series, No 20, Middlesex Asylum, Colney Hatch and then later into the Leavesden asylum records. It is still a bit unclear to me whether this form was filled out based on information supplied by the people who brought Aaron to the workhouse (ie. his brother Wolf presumably) or whether it was based on Dr. Houchin's direct observations and conclusions about the patient. As a side note, Houchin was a police surgeon for H Division.

In any case, it has been suggested that it was repeatedly stated that Kozminski was not dangerous to others. In fact, this nugget of information was only apparently entered one time, then copied from one form to another. Sugden has noted that the entry was "let stand" whereas others were altered, but whether or not this is relevant is unclear. It seems possible to me that Wolf Abrahams (Aaron's brother) was simply asked if Aaron was dangerous, and he replied "no." If so, any further notes on his dangerousness would presumably have been based on his behavior in the asylum.

In addition, if the police were "involved" in having Kozminski committed (which also seems likely), then they might have had some input in terms of what exactly was entered into Kozminski's file, and what was communicated to the staff at the asylum. If, as has been suggested, the police believed that Aaron might have been the Ripper, then presumably this suspicion would have been communicated to the upper level officials at the asylum, while it may not have been communicated to the staff, for fear that rumors might spread. This assumes that the police would have wanted to hush up the Kozminski affair, which I also think is entirely reasonable.

RH

[Pontius2000]

Hi Pontius,Its now available in several books.The first time I happened to read it was in Paul Beggs The Facts.


Dont be silly . The point being that to have stopped for over a year ---presumably without medication ,and been at liberty throughout, seems a rather unlikely candidate for Jack the Ripper.
What other women do you mean that were murdered before his incarceration?

Quite a coincidence, the Paul Begg book you mentioned happened to be the most recent book I read. It's sitting here beside the computer. There is no such quote in Begg's book, and I just checked to verify. Perhaps you are mistaken as to which book it was in?

There have been numerous examples of serial killers who lead supposedly normal lives, being unmedicated, and while continuing to kill. So I'm not being 'silly' at all.

The other women who were killed after Mary Kelly and before Kosminski's incarceration?

Alice McKenzie, July 1889
Elizabeth Jackson, May 1889
Pinchin St Torso, September 1889

That's 3 right there. I'm not saying that any one of these were Ripper victims. But you have the air as if you 'know' that Kelly was the final Ripper victim, and you don't know that at all.

First you tell me to "get real", then "don't be silly". Don't come here trying to insult me by using quotes that don't exist and making assumptions without any proof or evidence. Thanks.

[Natalie Severn]

That Doctors would allow a man as dangerous as the ripper to be detained in an ordinary asylum is very unlikely.Check out what happened to any of the criminally insane at this period and you will find the dangerous ones-were all sent to Broadmoor--including Thomas Cutbush who according to Macnaghten was sent there for having " jobbed two women in the behind "let alone murdering and mutilating at least five women in quick succession and causing pandemonium in the metropolis.

No doctor would put the lives of his patients and staff at risk with a known murderer at large among them for a period stretching over thirty years when there was no way of controlling episodes of insanity with drugs in those days.
Poor Kosminski deteriorated rapidly after 1894,just three years after admission.There is a clear description of the form that deterioration took in his succinct medical notes and nowhere does it include any reference to him being dangerous to others.

[Pontius2000]

That Doctors would allow a man as dangerous as the ripper to be detained in an ordinary asylum is very unlikely.Check out what happened to any of the criminally insane at this period and you will find the dangerous ones-were all sent to Broadmoor--including Thomas Cutbush who according to Macnaghten was sent there for having " jobbed two women in the behind "let alone murdering and mutilating at least five women in quick succession and causing pandemonium in the metropolis.

No doctor would put the lives of his patients and staff at risk with a known murderer at large among them for a period stretching over thirty years when there was no way of controlling episodes of insanity with drugs in those days.
Poor Kosminski deteriorated rapidly after 1894,just three years after admission.There is a clear description of the form that deterioration took in his succinct medical notes and nowhere does it include any reference to him being dangerous to others.

They very clearly would admit someone who took up a knife and threatened the life of his sister, since that part is actually written from a statement and follows the pre-printed question on the standard admission form that you were apparently qouting.

Dangerous to other: "no" (the only part of your 'quote' that is actually true is the word 'no'). and then followed by the written statement of threatening the life of his sister with a knife.

It is doubtful that the doctors or staff would have had the first inkling of whether or not Kosminski was JtR. No, I doubt they would have taken JtR if they had known that's who they were taking. Yes, they would take violent inmates, evidenced by the Kosminski's admission.

[Natalie Severn]

They very clearly would admit someone who took up a knife and threatened the life of his sister, since that part is actually written from a statement and follows the pre-printed question on the standard admission form that you were apparently qouting.

Dangerous to other: "no" (the only part of your 'quote' that is actually true is the word 'no'). and then followed by the written statement of threatening the life of his sister with a knife.

It is doubtful that the doctors or staff would have had the first inkling of whether or not Kosminski was JtR. No, I doubt they would have taken JtR if they had known that's who they were taking. Yes, they would take violent inmates, evidenced by the Kosminski's admission.

This is nonsense. I believe the words were "said to have threatened his sister with a knife" and believe me that would have amounted to bugger all in Victorian domestics.

It is also reveals a great deal of ignorance about Victorian doctors expertise and their staff to suggest that they would have been so absurdly ignorant about a patient they were dealing with.

[robhouse]

a person could only be committed to broadmoor if he was found to be guilty of a crime.

[Debra A]

a person could only be committed to broadmoor if he was found to be guilty of a crime.

Rob, as I understand it, Cutbush was sent to Broadmoor without having undergone a trial. He was found unfit to plead and sent straight to Broadmoor. I've always wondered if being charged with a crime was enough.

[Natalie Severn]

a person could only be committed to broadmoor if he was found to be guilty of a crime.

Sure about that Rob?,if the police seriously thought they had something on Kosminski,they would have locked him up in the appropriate secure hospital,just as they did with Cutbush --------the women were not sure they had recognised him if I remember right .It also shows that ,as Macnaghten said,there wasnt a shadow of proof.It was all based on prejudice about a poor chap with some rather dirty habits[by which I mean "eating out of gutters etc]

[Natalie Severn]

a person could only be committed to broadmoor if he was found to be guilty of a crime.

So Kosminski was innocent -he certainly didnt have a criminal record -except for not putting a muzzle on his dog when walking it in November 1889.

[Chris]

This is nonsense. I believe the words were "said to have threatened his sister with a knife" ...

Just for the record, Houchin's certificate says:
"He took up a knife & threatened the life of his sister."

[Natalie Severn]

Just for the record, Houchin's "Statement of Particulars" says:
"He took up a knife & threatened the life of his sister."

Thanks for the exact wording.It would still have been a quite common form of
"domestic" threat in Whitechapel at the time as Trevor Marriot was pointing out,the police attend to dozens such "domestic" threats---and worse, every Saturday night .

[jason_c]

Hi All,
Lets not forget that in the Autumn of 1889 a year after Mary Kelly"s murder, Aaron Kosminski was walking the dog around Cheapside .We know this because the dog he was walking didnt have the recently,legally required muzzle on so Aaron was taken to court.
Once Aaron Kosminski had been incarcerated,he was diagnosed as "not being a danger to others"---there was never any reference to him being suspected of being Jack the Ripper either. He spent his time in an ordinary ward for similarly mentally ill people and he displayed no particular signs of aggression either on admission nor in the thirty years he spent in these institutions for the mentally ill.Nor had he ever had any conviction,prior to admission for violent behaviour .His symptoms had included paranoia and visual and auditory hallucinations.
And you think he could have been Jack the Ripper? Get real.

He didnt have access to very many drunken prostitutes during those 30 years either.

I dont see what the problem is with Kosminski walking his dog. Serial killers can, and do, function in society.

[Pontius2000]

-Kosminski was a suspect sometime between 1888 and 1890, probably (in my opinion) after the murder of Alice McKenzie in July 1889

-George R Sims: "This man was in the district during the whole period covered by the Whitechapel murders, and soon after they ceased certain facts came to light which showed that it was quite possible that he might have been the Ripper." Soon after they ceased? would that be the murder of Mary Kelly or Alice McKenzie? I would guess McKenzie. Kelly was the last of the canonical "Ripper murders" but not the last of the "Whitechapel murders". Frances Coles was the last "official" Whitechapel murder but there is evidence that the police felt they had their man in Sadler.

-Anderson: the witness "at once identified him." Swanson: "he knew he was identified". Swanson: "and after this identification which suspect knew, no other murder of this kind took place in London." This identification almost without doubt took place in July 1890. And indeed, no more murders took place except for Coles, which the police did not believe was a Ripper victim.

-it is pretty clear that Kosminski had an affective disorder, whether is was Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenia, or Schizoaffective Disorder (I stick by Bipolar until I see more evidence). This would have increased his likelihood of also being a Sociopath by 7 times more than the general population. This would, without much doubt at all, have made him more prone to violence than a member of the general population.

-the only evidence that the naysayers have to Kosminski being non-violent is a single word, "no", in his admission papers. However, there are many instances in these same notes as Kosminski being "violent", "troublesome", "excitable", "noisy". and these are very scant notes without much details at all. He allegedly threatened his sister's life with a knife and attempted to hit a hospital staff with a chair....non-violent?

-almost immediately after Kosminski is incarcerated for good, the Lubnowskis move from Greenfield Street and change their names. No explanation for this is known.

-The Ripper case file at Scotland Yard is inexplicably closed in 1892. hmm? This would've been within a year of the time that Coles was murdered, less than 4 years after the Ripper murders. I challenge anyone to show me any other case in history where the case on 11 murdered women is closed, without a known perpetrator, within 4 years of when the crimes were committed.

So yes, anyone who thinks that Kosminski is a very viable suspect obviously needs to "get real".