Plausibility of Kosminski

[tji]

[QUOTE=Tom_Wescott;191658]Surely, no one still thinks this?

Not sure Tom. It has been a while since I read up on it, it doesn't get much mention though nowadays so possibly not. It was also put forward it could have been Kosminski though ( I am not sure it was about him either but at least I am now on thread )


tj

[mariab]

Go to message boards, letters and communications the Crawford letter thread on second page.

A thread? I'll look it up, thanx.

[Natalie Severn]

Hello Tom,

Please excuse the rushed reply..work awaits.

The 2-1-1-1 or 2-1-2 refers to the C5.. Meaning that I tend to favour the same killer for the first two, and two or three different killers for the last three. Looking at it objectively, from this angle, it could well be I am completely wrong, but I see no logical reason for a one man killing spree.. as others do. I would find it very dufficult to be able to connect the same man to the 5 different places and not be recignised at least 3 times by the witnesses, thereby showing consistancy of height, build etc.
Phil

Hi Phil,
Sorry to but in here .
How do you marry up the fact that there were very few murders in Whitechapel in 1888 ie other than the ripper murders,[and very few the previous year 1887 or the following year 1889---the exact figures were put up a while ago by both David Gates and Colin Roberts].
Yet by your reckoning out stepped a series of stark mad 'copy cat' Rippers ,almost in unison, from the dark squares and squalid alleyways of Whitechapel---all suddenly 'at it' in the Autumn of 1888!
Now I grant it could have been a very serious case of OCD in perhaps one case,a case of someone very sick such as Aaron Kosminski or Thomas Cutbush who both had very severe mental health problems, catching word about another murder in Dutfields Yard that night and overcome by compulsion ,heading for Mitre Square intent to re-enact a murder........

other than something outlandish like that happening we surely have to accept that the chances are there was a serial killer loose in Whitechapel that Autumn and he killed all five--or more women.
Given that George Chapman,a man who would become a convicted serial killer 15 years later was also on the loose in Whitechapel at the time, its stretching credulity a bit to think there were living in Whitechapel alone not only one but several serial killers all at the same time----especially given that the statistics show so few murders most years.
Best
Norma

[Scott Nelson]

... why would the police still be chasing anyone.. note anyone.. as the Ripper if he was already known to be either locked up or in an asylum? It doesn't matter whom they are chasing. The mere fact they still are means that all those locked away or dead CANNOT be the Ripper...

Because anyone who believed the Ripper was locked away in an asylum couldn't be absolutely sure said person was the killer. So any suspicious men at liberty had to be chased and investigated. This does not mean that anyone already locked up couldn't have been the Ripper.

[Phil H]

...its stretching credulity a bit to think there were living in Whitechapel alone not only one but several serial killers all at the same time----

Well, Norma,

Unless you believe "Jack" was also the Torso Murderer, there were atleast two serial killers operating, and one of the torso's was, of course, left on "Ripper territory".

Again, there was a domestic elsewhere in London on the night Eddowes and Stride were murdered. If one, why not two (Stride)?

I have a deep reservation about relying on not wanting to rely on coincidence to explain things. It cannot predict, of course, but in my reading of history the most unbelievable of coincidences can and have occurred.

There are several possibilities regarding the Ripper murders, one of which is a too casual reliance on the "canonical" explanation and connection of cases. Those who originated that view were indeed there, as we are not, but they had pressures on them we do not. We can stand back and look again.

Another possibility as has been mentioned in, I think, at least two books - is that the press played a role in creating the serial idea to keep their sales up.

Alternatively, a killer or killers may have sought to use what they understood to be/had read about "Jack's" methodology to hide their own single "domestic" killings.

For what it's worth (not much maybe) my own current view is - Nichols, Chapman and probably Eddowes were killed by a single hand whom I name "Jack" for convenience. "Jack" may have killed earlier too.

Stride was possibly a domestic - killed by her ex-lover Kidney.

MJK was also probably a domestic covered up to look like a "Jack" job but the killer went too far (only having read the accounts of the injuries/mutilations).

I would be alive to the possibility that "Jack" knew the Torso killer and may have been inspired by him, or assisted him.

I would also be alive to a fenian hand in Eddowes'/MJK's deaths.

But I would not rule out multiple murderers simply because it does not suit your idea of credulity. "ack" may have created, unwittingly, an atmosphere in which others could also flourish (their knives).

Phil

[Simon Wood]

Hi Norma,

In 1888 there was a total 24 knife attacks and/or murders in the East End. I have a list of the names.

12 of these were by unknown perpetrators.

Of these 12, 5 were allegedly the work of JtR.

By my rudimentary mathematics that leaves 7 by unknown perpetrators other than JtR.

Hope you're well.

Regards,

Simon

[Phil Carter]

Hi Phil, thanks for the insightful answer. I don't think understanding the perspectives of the various contributors to the thread is in any way off topic. But just to confirm, you seem to feel that Nichols and Chapman were killed by the same man, and you equally feel secure that Stride was a one-off, but you're not yet certain whether or not Eddowes and Kelly were each one-offs, or would killed by the same man. If by the same man, do you feel that man was the same as Nichols/Chapman? And what are your thoughts on Smith and Tabram?

Considering your view that Stride was a one-off, do you not feel that Le Grand is a good suspect in that murder? I've said a million times that a person would not have to accept Le Grand pall mall as the Ripper to accept that the circumstancial evidence in the case of Stride is rather strong. And is Maria correct in that you think a Leather Apron type (presumably, you don't suspect John Pizer) killed some or all of the early victims?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

I blinked twice.. I thought.. no funnies.. no jibes.. no mickey taking comments... a serious post showing interest in my thoughts from Tom?. Nah..can't be... but, yes, it seems it is! Thank you.

Well there are fair indications that Isenschmidt could have been responsible for one if not two of the first two. Just because No's 3 and 4 happened doesn't make him not responsible.. it just doesn't make him JTR. Lynn's work on him has impressed me. I am not sure though. Maria is presuming, on my behalf, bless her cotton socks.

I have an interest in a possible suspect possibly connected to the Tabram murder, and also believe Smith was a gang job. When it comes to Stride.. there certainly is more than meets the eye about her killing. I do not think she was connected with the Eddowes murderer though. Those two killings have, for me, different hallmarks.. but that is the sore point most people have about the Ripper murders, either they think she was the first of two on the night by the same hand, or they don't. But people know this already of me. Nothing new there.

Eddowes and Kelly as by the same hand I am in two minds about. Certainly not the same hand as Chapman and Nichols. If you were to press me, I'd say 60/40 in favour of two different killers for C4 and C5. But am uncertain.. like many I suppose.Arnold reckoned on Copy cat killings in amongst this lot somewhere.. and I think he may have a point. It's a touchy point for some, and strangely rarely discussed.

The Kelly murder and surrounding investigation, especially with the Eddowes murder on the last point, leaves great big question marks in my book. Especially Eddowes. Too much that doesn't make sense. I don't actually rule out that the body in 13 Millers Court was one "Mary Jane Kelly".

As regards Le Grande. I have said before that I believe him to have been a thug.. not a knife wielding mutilator of women.. but that said.. if there is any chance of him being one of the murderers, then the best hope would rest with the Stride murder. That doesn't mean I am happy with his name being linked to her death.. but certainly better, imho, than the other four....CERTAINLY better than Kosminski and Druitt... on what we know as of today.I see large holes in the case against Le Grande at the moment.. but as Simon says.. if you can nail him to be a very likely murderer of one of the C5.. I'd too doff my cap. (It's a devil's own job to do what you are attempting.. I'm sure you agree!)

One of the problems on these boards is posting stuff from "out there" where people have entrenched themselves and cannot be shifted. All normal explanations have left us little. I am intruiged that Special Branch was involved in the investigation. (That matter has been discussed elsewhere).. as "Special" have their own agenda to follow.

Here's an agenda that may be possible. Its hypothetical only.. but imagine if there was an Irish connection to the Kelly murder. Special gets involved. Now.. it would seem likely to me that IF Special started wanting papers etc they would raid the Met Police stuff.. all on the Kelly murder. Now, after a length of time, all the Kelly stuff would still be in their hands.. and especially if the investigation rattled around Fenianism. The papers would have been kept with Special.. in THEIR files. Not with any certainty weeded out and filtered back to the Met Police files. This may, just may explain why the Kelly file in particular, has virtually nothing in it. And where do the Special Branch Files on Fenian activity reside? yup... same place as the Ledgers. Probably under the restricted and closed MEPO 38 files as has been discussed on these boards before. Possible?

It's all hypothesis. But now you have the answers you asked for, without any suspect names barring Isenschmidt, which is tentative anyway. I have ideas and am working on much.. but that is not for me to explain as yet as I am not happy with it yet to be near certain. That is why I honestly do not like hyped up naming of "New Prime Suspects".. it does Ripperology a dis-service I feel. But that's just personal opinion.


kindly

Phil

P.S. I don't believe the upper echelons of the police were as fluffy tailed as is thought by some either. But then people know that of me too.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Norma.

The answer came from Simon..

Thank you Simon for the answer. I was about to say the same without the actual figures in front of me.

Most kind of you.

kindly

Phil

[mariab]

Maria is presuming, on my behalf, bless her cotton socks.

As it happens, I'm bare-footed right now. :-)
Actually I wanted to say “Isenschmidt“ but thought better of it, due to Lynn's ongoing research.

Here's an agenda that may be possible. Its hypothetical only.. but imagine if there was an Irish connection to the Kelly murder. Special gets involved. Now.. it would seem likely to me that IF Special started wanting papers etc they would raid the Met Police stuff.. all on the Kelly murder. Now, after a length of time, all the Kelly stuff would still be i their hands.. and especially if the investigation rattled around Fenianism. The papers would have been kept with Special.. in THEIR files. Not with any certainty weeded out and filtered back to the Met Police files. This may, just may explain why the Kelly file in particular, has virtually nothing in it. And where do the Special Branch Files on Fenian activity reside? yup... same place as the Ledgers. Probably under the restricted and closed MEPO 38 files as has been discussed on these boards before. Possible?

See, I wasn't entirely wrong about that Fenian angle of yours, cotton socks and all. :-)

In 1888 there was a total 24 knife attacks and/or murders in the East End. I have a list of the names. 12 of these were by unknown perpetrators. Of these 12, 5 were allegedly the work of JtR.

Were the other 7 attacks fatal, burlgary-type attacks, or attacks on women at night? I trust you're counting Annie Millwood and Ada Wilson among these?

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Simon.
But the knife attacks numbering 17[?] did not result in mutilation or a slit throat --- clearly Martha Tabram has to be included here so its actually very few actual murders apart from the series thought to have been carried out by the ripper and Martha Tabram.
Really its no other murders?

[Phil Carter]

Hello Maria,

It isn't an angle as such. Its hypothesis.. as shown. Nothing more.

kindly

Phil

[PaulB]

Yes the three stooges !!!!!!! What evidence ?

And so mixing with Stewart and Don and going to police reunions suddenly makes you a detective does it. You couldnt catch a cold

I have no more time to waste here with you and your narrow minded approach to all of this. Whn the final day of reckoning come we will see whos right and who is wrong and that day looms ever nearer.

What an idiot you are.

[mariab]

Hello Maria,
It isn't an angle as such. Its hypothesis.. as shown. Nothing more.

Sure Phil, I see. I'm following up a bit through Lynn's thoughts.

[PaulB]

I must say I'm impressed how Paul is holding his own against Trevor. Who ever thought he could be so meeeeeaaaaannn! But when they're ready to turn back to the subject of the Ripper, Koz, etc., we'll all be the better for it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

It isn't possible to turn back to the subject, Tom, because Trevor, as he has demonstrated, doesn't understand it.

[mariab]

I'm also saddened by what Paul Begg has to put up with in this thread, and he most certainly doesn't deserve it. Perhaps ignoring the unrelenting, repetitive attacks might be the best approach after a while, esp. regarding waste of energy and intact blood pressure?