Plausibility of Kosminski

[mariab]

Maria, there are so many Js and JH Batchelors in London at the right time that it's impossible to determine who he was without more information I think. There are many intriguing possibilities.

Thanks Debs. Not a chance that any of them is listed at the shop in question? I'm also interested to see what Lynn has (which is probably the same as what you have).

As far as that bloody shirt goes. I think that Le Grand and Batchelor were probably just the first to disclose a well kept SY secret to the press, first discovered in the house to house by Thicke and White. The lodger thing is a different issue maybe.

Really Debs, you think that Thicke and White came before Le Grand and Bachelor?! I wonder why the story about them first appeared in The Echo of October 15 then. Or is there an earlier direct reference to them? By the by, I can imagine Le Grand having caught wind of some gossip about a bloody shirt on Batty Street, then going seing Ms. Kür and communicating with her (since he understood German), but him figuring out a well kept secret by the SY, I have some difficulty imagining this.
At any rate, I'm overdue in reading Gavin Bromley and incidentally I've just concluded my conference paper on deadline a minute ago, so I might even manage to read Bromley tonight, later on.

[Jonathan H]

To Paul B

Thanks for engaging me in debate.

You're quite right, of course.

In the 'Aberconway' version of his 'Home Office Report', projected onto the public via Griffiths and later Sims, Macnaghten does write that 'Kosminski' was a strong 'suspect'.

Major Griffiths in 1898 dutifully propagated this idea in 'Mysteries of Police and Crime', almost word for word (though the already semi-fictionalised Druitt had to be further fictionalised with the 'family' becoming 'friends').

Mac also asserts, via Sims in 1907, that whilst the Polish Jew and the Russian doctor might have been the fiend, the mitigating circumstance which got both 'off the hook' was that they were alive long after the Kelly murder. Of course, by Mac's standard Druitt is a lousy suspect too, as only a killer who kills himself immediately , a 'shrieking, raving fiend', is the key incriminating factor -- which is completely untrue of the historical Druitt.

On the other hand, Mac as a source -- taken in totality -- arguably and decisively rejects 'Kosminski', rightly or wrongly, as the Ripper.

His memoirs are the only document he wrote with his name attached for public consumption, eg. no hiding behind cronies this time.

Despite what he claims about relying on memory, and aplogising for errors of memory, Macnaghten actually had 'Aberconway' right at his elbow -- with those very words about 'Kosminski' being a 'strong "suspect"' in front of him --and yet he rejected his inclusion. This omission, buried in weak suspects arrested in the East and West Ends, is arguably his real opinion.

It is an opinion which also matches the official version of his 'Report', albeit one in which all three suspect are unlikely -- just more likely than Cutbush.

Furthermore, in those 1914 memoirs Macnaghten debunks the idea of the Ripper as a Jew, and of the police having any idea about the real chief suspect for 'some years', and that there was no Super-witness, and that the real Ripper had ever seen the inside of an asylum.

The 1914 memoirs are backed by his 1913 comments on the eve of his retirement in which he did not confirm the Dr. Jekyllish (or Tumbletyesque) features about the un-named Druitt. A cricket fanatic, Mac spoke of Druitt chummily, if tastelessly, as a 'remarkable man' -- about whom he claimed he knew the full details -- and, by implication, refuted the Polish Jew as a 'definitely, ascertained fact'.

Are alternate interpretations possible of these sources possible?

For sure.

I am making the point that one legit interpretation is that Anderson and Swanson -- two quite different men -- were there, so they should know. They went with the Polish Jew and so this is probably the Ripper.

But I think it is also a legit interpretation that Macnaghten was also there, and that he knew too, and that, overall, he rejected the Polish Jew solution, and therefore this is a weak suspect.

After all, Macnaghten had a better sense of 'Kosminski' still being alive in the madhouse, and of being out and about for some time before being sectioned.

Of course, I think that it is Macnaghten who told Anderson and/or Swanson about 'Kosminski', and that he had died in the asylum, just as he allegedly told Tom Divall that the best suspect died in an asylum -- in the States.

[Debra A]

The Echo[/I] of October 15 then. Or is there an earlier direct reference to them? By the by, I can imagine Le Grand having caught wind of some gossip about a bloody shirt on Batty Street, then going seing Ms. Kür and communicating with her (since he understood German), but him figuring out a well kept secret by the SY, I have some difficulty imagining this.
At any rate, I'm overdue in reading Gavin Bromley and incidentally I've just concluded my conference paper on deadline a minute ago, so I might even manage to read Bromley tonight, later on.

Really. Le Grand was not the shrinking violet we are led to believe, shying away from publicity?
"When the Whitechapel murders created so much excitement,this agency came prominently before the public through Le Grand's professed ability to discover the murderer by means of his agents at home and abroad."

[Tom_Wescott]

Yawn....God, this thread is Boring!

It’s always boring when no one’s been accused of fabricating evidence, writing crappy books, or being biased for a day or so. Stick around.

Your logic is illogical. You can't jump from point 2 to point 3 through what I've posted unless you are a total idiot.

See Scott, the Good Mike just called the Bad Mac an idiot. It’s heating up!

Really Debs, you think that Thicke and White came before Le Grand and Bachelor?!

The Ripperological equivalent of the chicken and the egg? I’d have love to have seen these guys on their door-to-door…

Thicke: Hello, we’re Thicke and White.

Fanny Mortimer: Why should I care? Get a tan, go on a diet, and bugger off!

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Really. Le Grand was not the shrinking violet we are led to believe, shying away from publicity?
"When the Whitechapel murders created so much excitement,this agency came prominently before the public through Le Grand's professed ability to discover the murderer by means of his agents at home and abroad."

Then where was all this 'publicity' in the press? Outside of Packer and a small blurb about Batty Street, where is he?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Then where was all this 'publicity' in the press? Outside of Packer and a small blurb about Batty Street, where is he?

Agree.
And post #1084 cracked me up.
Poor Tom, you're about to get my paper per email. (In English, not in Italian. And it has tons of politics and religion in there.)

Quote Debra Arif:
"When the Whitechapel murders created so much excitement,this agency came prominently before the public through Le Grand's professed ability to discover the murderer by means of his agents at home and abroad."
Not sure if this is a quote or what you are saying, Debs. Could you clarify?

[Fleetwood Mac]

Your logic is illogical. You can't jump from point 2 to point 3 through what I've posted unless you are a total idiot. Only a sworn, signed statement could convict a man. Chris was right. You are a dork and need to just shut up. 7 times I've said the same thing and your brain can't fathom it still. Friggin' nutcase.

Well, I shouldn't admit this in public but yes I couldn't possibly understand what you're suggesting. Because you're a genius. In fact, you're that much of a ****in' genius that when Swanson said: "there was an identification", you think it means: "well, no, there wasn't an identification, there was a nod and wink, and, me being Swanson, the trained police officer with years of service; I'm that ****in' idiotic and dense that when I say 'identification' I mean I thought I saw an identification based on a look, which admittedly would have scared a burrow owl but doesn't detract from the fact I am utterly incompetent because I will, in all likelihood, make up any old bollocks. I mean, the missus looked at me across the dinner table last night and said: "I love you", but with me being as paranoid as **** (probably less paranoid than Kosminski) I could see by the look her in eye she really meant: "I would love you if it wasn't for the next door neighbour who is ******* me into oblivion on a Monday and Wednesday and into a coma on Thursday and Saturday".

[Wickerman]

This thread is in a rapid downhill spiral...



Only "you" can stop it!

[The Good Michael]

Apparently LeGrand gets so little airplay that he had to be brought to an active thread. Maria, take it elsewhere, Pubtalk maybe.


Mike

[mariab]

Pubtalk, Michael? This thread IS pub talk.

[Tom_Wescott]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apparently LeGrand gets so little airplay that he had to be brought to an active thread. Maria, take it elsewhere, Pubtalk maybe.

You mean the number one suspect? This is between you and Maria. Leave the Grand one out of it.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Good Michael]

Tom,

He's an OK suspect, yet he's no Hutchinson, but it's about thread hijacking and Maria does this on a consistent basis. I suggested pubtalk because of that and not because of LeGrand's viability.

Mike

[mariab]

Michael,
technically you're quite right. Le Grand got pulled into this thread via Rob House instrumentalising the Ms. Kür shirt for Kozminsky, so Le Grand HAD to be mentioned.
But I promise, no more Le Grand on this thread.
And I haven't highjacked a thread since months, it was a (very inappropriate) phase in my early months here, for which I most embarrassingly apologize.

[Tom_Wescott]

He's an OK suspect, yet he's no Hutchinson, but it's about thread hijacking and Maria does this on a consistent basis.

She does? Why, I've hardly noticed her on the boards. She must avoid me or something.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

She must avoid me or something.

I'll let you deal on yourself on the other thread over at the JTRForums then, Tom. Can you spare 56 hours in your day?