Plausibility of Kosminski

[Trevor Marriott]

I see, so you're one of those who avoids answering a question by asking a question. Well, for the moment let's stick with why you are wetting your pants with excitement over a video expressing a theory that is twenty-five years old. Count 'em, twenty-five years. And you've only just found out what Martin's theory is! Extraordinary. Absolutely extraordinary.

Well thats rich coming from you i ask a simple question for you to answer with a yes or no and what do you do turn it around by asking another back and still deciline to answer.

I am not wetting my pants over a video i am simply highlighting the obvious flaws in Aaron Kosminski. Its a shame you cant see them.

I cant beleive that. You can see them but you wont accept the fact that Aaron Kosminski is well and truly now out of the suspect loop.

Look forward to seeing you on the village green 6am for the ceremonial burning previoulsy mentioned dont forget to bring your papers and books

[Trevor Marriott]

Mister Begg, not wanting to detract from your own argument but I would suggest that much of the criticism of "Kosminski-ites" (assuming I have not misunderstood Mister Marriots posts, and if I have I appologise) can be answered by tracing the changing and adapting paths of Martin Fidos own output. Now I will admit, I was a bit young to have picked up, or understood any Ripper book in '87. I was at primary school. Nearly a decade later however I used to wile away my paper round listening to audio books on double cassette bought from Woolworths. (Yes, my corner of Kent is THAT dull). Martin Fido had released several, including one on Jack the Ripper, that not only covered in 3hrs (two days of delivering papers) the key points of the case and the investigation, but surmised his work producing his book, the identity of Cohen, and some of the other works that came after.

By the time I am able to afford an Ipod a more recent edition of those tapes, seriously updated and amended, seemes to have made it's way on to itunes, which discusses more of the theories and publications since, concentrating on the Cohen/Kosminski theories. Now not only is it suggested that in some cases "Kosminski" has become the name attached to a general "Jewish Suspect" umbrella, (which I would say is not entirely unreasonable given that it seems to be the name, if incorrectly applied, that at least one officer gave to the suspect) but also seems to suggest that far from changing the goal posts people have been re-assessing their hypothosis to fit the growing evidence base.

Mister Fido made it quite clear that in his book (which does seem to follow the same lines as the dvd) that "Kosminski" may just have been the name that the Police new a suspect by, but it could have variably been Kosminski, Kaminski, Cohen, or a person as yet unknown. A distinction should be made between the championing of "The guy we know was in a mental hospital called Kosminski" and "The guy who was described in significant details by at least one reliable source who called him Kosminski, but the description does not fit the only known patient of that name,".

The accusation of cottage industry bolstering the case of a suspect, and of clinks with in the community could be made for anybody who seems to rabbidly support a particular suspect, which would mean that Mister Marriott is in his own cabal, even if he was the only member. By his own statement he seems to be trying to disprove other suspects as a part of building the case for his own suspect.

I would (and again, I am very sorry Mister Marriott if that was a misunderstanding on my part) suggest that as a bit of a sceptic that is the wrong way to go about solving the case. If you form the mentality that the only good reason to disprove other suspects is to prove your own, then you are prejudising your work from the off. You have selected the person you think is guilty and are trying to interpret any new information to suit that path, exactly as you accuse others of doing.

We are now at a point where far from forming cabals pushing for any given suspect the vast majority of members of the community seem to be moving away from claiming anybody is the prime suspect. I will admit my experience of the community is limited, but just from reading this forum it would suggest that the trend now seems to be gathering all evidence available and testing it against all known suspects. I have seen many people talk of Kosminski as being one of, or even the, most likely suspect in their eyes, but that is far from describing him as the man they wish to prove to be the Ripper. There is, it seems, a sliding scale of plausibility that various suspects move up and down in the eyes of different people, but the expectation of total proof and definitive claims has long since past. There have been too many final solutions.

At best we can expect to one day find a key document, say the identification at the "sea side home" which may allow us to describe one suspect or another as the most viable. But attempting to discredit other theories should not be a consideration of your own case. It suggests that all evidence is considered only as a means of achieving one of two outcomes: Discarding theory A, or Proving theory B, when it may well be blinding us to the much more important theory C.

Er, sorry, I will step aside and let people who know what they are talking about back in now...

I would say that I am not trying to bolster my own suspect at the expense of other suspects. For far to long now all we have heard is Aaron Kosminski. Mr Begg and others have talked and written about him and published books on him.

It is now time for a full review of the case agsinst him with a view to crossing Aaaron Kosminski off the list forever. Becuase it is quite clear that Aaron Kosminski is not the Kosminski mentioned in the various questionable statements and reports etc, and to date no one has come up with any other evidence to show who he really was.

As far as my suspect Feigenbaum is concerned I have had the balls to publicly retract some of what I wrote previoulsy. My stance now is that as far as Feigenbaum is concerned I do not think he was responsible for all of the murders. However it is quite probable that he was concerned in one or some of them.

He couldnt have been Jack The Ripper nor could any of the others because as we know the name was created by the press and in doing so created a myth which is still with us today. Take the name away and what are you left with a series of similar unsloved murders. There was no Jack The Ripper

Now if i have the balls to be honest and go public and to be fair to Martin Fido he has done the same by stating he does not beleive Aaaron Kosmimski was the ripper then others on here should consider going public to and admit they are now wrong about Aaron Kosminski.

[John Malcolm]

Mr. Marriott,
With all due respect for your efforts to dig into the Special Branch files, I find your "funny little games" regarding Kosminski both annoying and counter-productive. As (most probably) the one and only true "Andersonite", I've been as frustrated as anyone trying to reconcile the "Polish Jew Theory" with the "facts"- that being said, we all would welcome the opportunity to clear some of this up. So instead of simply poking us with your stick, why don't you just tell us why "Kosminski" should be removed from consideration so those of us with no agenda to push can move on? If I have to eat crow regarding Anderson and his "theory", then I will...but I'll need to see the crow first.

[Chris]

Becuase it is quite clear that Aaron Kosminski is not the Kosminski mentioned in the various questionable statements and reports etc, and to date no one has come up with any other evidence to show who he really was.

If you could provide evidence for these assertions you keep making, they might be worth discussing.

Speaking for myself, I have gone to the trouble of actually researching Aaron Kozminski in the records. I have devoted quite a lot of time and money to that research, and the results have been made freely available to whoever was interested. I didn't do that research because I thought Aaron Kozminski was Jack the Ripper - I think he is unlikely to have had anything to do with the murders - I did it in order to try to get as full and accurate a picture of him as possible.

If you do decide at some point in the future to reveal this information you say you have discovered, then it will be possible to evaluate it. But making these endless assertions on the basis of evidence that you're not prepared to disclose is just a waste of your time and everyone else's.

[Trevor Marriott]

Mr. Marriott,
With all due respect for your efforts to dig into the Special Branch files, I find your "funny little games" regarding Kosminski both annoying and counter-productive. As (most probably) the one and only true "Andersonite", I've been as frustrated as anyone trying to reconcile the "Polish Jew Theory" with the "facts"- that being said, we all would welcome the opportunity to clear some of this up. So instead of simply poking us with your stick, why don't you just tell us why "Kosminski" should be removed from consideration so those of us with no agenda to push can move on? If I have to eat crow regarding Anderson and his "theory", then I will...but I'll need to see the crow first.

It is quite clear why Aaron Kosminski should be removed and i dont propose to go over it all again. In fact it doesnt even need any further input there is enough on the table now.

As to what else I have uncovered to put the icing on the cake well all in good time. I may take a leaf out of the cartels book and decide not to publish it at all. But I think not I would not miss this opportuntiy for the world

[fido]

Oh dear, oh dear!

Mr Marriott insinuates trhat I won't give a straight "yes or no, do I NOW agree Kosminski could not have been the Ripper?"

This is a silly - and I fear impertinent question, given that from the moment I found him I was sure Kosminski could not be the Ripper and immediately published that belief, from which I have never budged.

Paul Begg, too, thinks it at the very least extremely unlikely that Kosminski could have been the Ripper, but given the quality of the evidence surrounding all known suspects, believes that until Kosminski has been exhaustively researched and conclusively proved innocent, there is insufficient point in pursuing other known lines of enquiry to persuade him to follow them. (Philip Sugden's stance vis-a-vis Chapman is similar, since Philip, unlike Paul and me, interprets the evidence as indicating that Abberline is a more reliable witness than Anderson and Swanson).

If Mr Marriott has genuine new evidence that conclusively dismisses Aaron Kosminski from the case, Paul and I will be pleased to acknowledge it. So shall I if he has evidence conclusively dismissing Cohen, whom Paul does not at this stage think worth more detailed investigation.

Neither I nor anybody else, as far as I know, has ever suggested that Kosminski was a generic term used by the police or anyone else to denote imperfectly identified Jewish suspects. On the other hand, I was advised by people from America and Italy that their families had been spontaneously given the name Cohen by immigration officials who could not pronounce or spell their central European names, and so they were unsurprised that the name David or Aaron Davis Cohen might have been attached to someone whose identity was unknown. It should be clear that once the Swanson marginalia showed a more plausible reason for the name of Cohen being confused with the name Kosminski (i.e. that the Met knew about Cohen, without being sure of his name; the City knew about Kosminski, and as Don Rumbelow pointed out to me in 1988 must have been sure about the name because they knew the brother, and when at a later date somebody compared notes, they thought they were talking about the same "poor immigrant Jew from Whitechapel who went into Colney Hatch" - a description which fits both.)

And once again, let me point out that my examination of the asylum records had persuaded me that Cohen was Anderson's unnamed suspect BEFORE I proved the existence of Kosminski: I did not go hunting for a better suspect; indeed, I should have been overjoyed if Kosmknski had really looked like the Ripper, and would have thought the case effectively closed.

Mr Marriott's suggestion that Aaron wasn't Swanson's Kosminski because parts of him don't fit Swanson's account seems to be proposing the false corollary that there is therefore another Kosminski waiting to be found. This is certainly not the case. I checked the death registers down to the 1960s, allowing for the Ripper to live to 100.

Frankly, I don't think Mr Marriott clearly understands the arguments he challenges.

Martin Fido

[Fleetwood Mac]

It is quite clear why Aaron Kosminski should be removed and i dont propose to go over it all again. In fact it doesnt even need any further input there is enough on the table now.

As to what else I have uncovered to put the icing on the cake well all in good time. I may take a leaf out of the cartels book and decide not to publish it at all. But I think not I would not miss this opportuntiy for the world

Ahhh, but what on earth is the use in knowledge if it's not to discuss it.....

And....you Trevor....of all people......keeping your good work secret?

I'm not a Kosminski advocate at all....but I'm wondering what you can have that would rule him out......there's opinion and then there's fact...

[Trevor Marriott]

Ahhh, but what on earth is the use in knowledge if it's not to discuss it.....

I agree entirely but it seems Mess Begg and co dont take the same view as they wont share with us the previously mentioned documents so if I choose to do the same who could blame me.

And....you Trevor....of all people......keeping your good work secret?

You obvioulsy dont play poker

I'm not a Kosminski advocate at all....but I'm wondering what you can have that would rule him out......there's opinion and then there's fact...

What i have doesnt just rule Kosminski out but others as well

[Fleetwood Mac]

What i have doesnt just rule Kosminski out but others as well

As it stands, Trevor, only in your mind......

Unless of course, you're suggesting that people just believe you....

See, until you make this stuff available for discussion, you alone have ruled out Kosminski and associates and the rest of us go on as we were completely oblivious to whatever you have or think you have.

[Garry Wroe]

I didnt ask you to rule out the name Kosminski merly the name Aaaron Kosminski who according to some was scotland Yards prime suspect.

That's interesting, Trevor. Reading between the lines, the implication appears to be that you have uncovered an official reference to a Kosminski other than Aaron.

[robhouse]

"I am not wetting my pants over a video i am simply highlighting the obvious flaws in Aaron Kosminski."

You have not highlighted any flaws at all that I am aware of. All I see you doing is blustering around the room like an oaf. If you have something to say then say it. Given your demonstrated inability to interpret historical documents, I am not expecting much at all.

[Scott Nelson]

Mr Marriott's suggestion that Aaron wasn't Swanson's Kosminski because parts of him don't fit Swanson's account seems to be proposing the false corollary that there is therefore another Kosminski waiting to be found. This is certainly not the case.

Why not? What if Cohen's European name was Kosminski, or another immigrant named Kosminski was incarcerated under an anglicized name?

[Trevor Marriott]

That's interesting, Trevor. Reading between the lines, the implication appears to be that you have uncovered an official reference to a Kosminski other than Aaron.

No no other refernce to another Kosminski.

My point in relation to all of this and i cant see why the Kosminki`ites wont accept it is that clearly "Aaron Kosminski" was not the Kosminski named in the dubious questionable MM and the marginalia there is not one scrap of evidence to connect Aaron Kosminki with any of this.

His malignment stems from the fact that he came onto the police radar simply because he threatened his sister with a knife and was later deemed to be mad and he lived in Whitechapel. The same scenario applies to Cutbush and how he came to the notice of the police.

You could speculate for hours as to why Macnaghten chose to elevate them to Ripper suspects.But clearly when you examine the suspects he named you have to look at where those persons were at the time and where they were in 1894. and were any of them in a position to defend themselves against any accusations?

If the marginalia is genuine then Swanson would have already known the name of Kosminski from the MM. It should be noted heonly refers to the name Kosminski notice no christian name if he was involved as the head of the investigation I would have expected hom to remeber the full name of a prime suspect.

There has been no trace found by anyone of another Kosminski who could fit with the content of the aforementioned documents.

Unintentionally Martin Fido started of what can only be decsribed as a Kosminski feeding frenzy which has gathered so much momentum resulting in numerous books and now a documentary all suggesting Aaron Kosminski was the Ripper.

These authors and filmmakers have now passed the point of no return and that is why they are never going to be honest enough to admit that they got it wrong.

[PaulB]

Well thats rich coming from you i ask a simple question for you to answer with a yes or no and what do you do turn it around by asking another back and still deciline to answer.

I am not wetting my pants over a video i am simply highlighting the obvious flaws in Aaron Kosminski. Its a shame you cant see them.

I cant beleive that. You can see them but you wont accept the fact that Aaron Kosminski is well and truly now out of the suspect loop.

Look forward to seeing you on the village green 6am for the ceremonial burning previoulsy mentioned dont forget to bring your papers and books

Trevor,
Don't try to be clever, it's not your strong point. The question was and is whether you knew and understood Martin's 25-year-old thinking on this subject before you drew attention to the video, and it is patently obvious that you didn't and your current bluff and bluster just proves it. So don't try your naive attempts at table turning on me or on others here.

You most certainly were wetting your pants over the video. Why else did you rush here with your little discovery and unbaked-baked comments, unless it was because you thought you'd come across something special.

And you haven't highlighted any obvious flaws in Aaron Kosminski. Not a single one. Nothing. But go ahead and highlight one or two if you can. But first, dry off your pants and 'fess up that you hadn't read Martin's book or knew what he thought about Kosminski.

You see, Trevor, it seems clear that you don't even know what's in those books you talk about ceremoniously burning on the village green.

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor,
Don't try to be clever, it's not your strong point. The question was and is whether you knew and understood Martin's 25-year-old thinking on this subject before you drew attention to the video, and it is patently obvious that you didn't and your current bluff and bluster just proves it. So don't try your naive attempts at table turning on me or on others here.

You most certainly were wetting your pants over the video. Why else did you rush here with your little discovery and unbaked-baked comments, unless it was because you thought you'd come across something special.

And you haven't highlighted any obvious flaws in Aaron Kosminski. Not a single one. Nothing. But go ahead and highlight one or two if you can. But first, dry off your pants and 'fess up that you hadn't read Martin's book or knew what he thought about Kosminski.

You see, Trevor, it seems clear that you don't even know what's in those books you talk about ceremoniously burning on the village green.

Mr Begg the facts speak for themselves.

As to the books I know that there is nothing in any of them to substantiate your claim or any of the other that Aaron Kosminski was involved in any of the murders let alone the suggestion that he was a homicidal serial killer.

Now its 8am and i am stood here on the village green and would you beleive not a sign of you or any of your other Kosminki`ites has the coach broke dowm ?

and you still didnt answer the question was it a yes or a no ?