Plausibility of Kosminski

[robhouse]

Trevor,

I agree that it seems more likely that Tumblety would show up in the SB files if he indeed had Fenian connections. But it is the Fenian connection that would probably bring him to the attention of SB... not the fact that he was simply a Ripper suspect. So this same logic would not hold true for suspects like Kozminski, Druitt etc who did not have connections to terrorist or anarchist organizations. This same line or reasoning might explain why Littlechild (of SB) was aware of Tumblety as a Ripper suspect, but not perhaps knowledgeable about other suspects.

I am interested in your statement that "i know that in the ledgers there is an entry from Littlechild naming a suspect for the ripper." How do you know this? To be honest, I am unclear as to what exactly you have seen already. I assume you have seen the Constable's Register already, with the entry from Littlechild, but with the suspect's name redacted. Is that correct?

RH

[Phil Carter]

Hi Rob,

This is from perhaps a year ago on these forums. I will endeavour to hunt it down.

best wishes

Phil

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor,

I agree that it seems more likely that Tumblety would show up in the SB files if he indeed had Fenian connections. But it is the Fenian connection that would probably bring him to the attention of SB... not the fact that he was simply a Ripper suspect. So this same logic would not hold true for suspects like Kozminski, Druitt etc who did not have connections to terrorist or anarchist organizations. This same line or reasoning might explain why Littlechild (of SB) was aware of Tumblety as a Ripper suspect, but not perhaps knowledgeable about other suspects.

I am interested in your statement that "i know that in the ledgers there is an entry from Littlechild naming a suspect for the ripper." How do you know this? To be honest, I am unclear as to what exactly you have seen already. I assume you have seen the Constable's Register already, with the entry from Littlechild, but with the suspect's name redacted. Is that correct?

RH

But Littlechild obviousy was aware of Tumblety as a ripper suspect it would appear he named him in Simms letter. So if he dosnt name him in the ledgers you have to rule him out, especially if he is naming someone else now.

[robhouse]

Trevor,

The thing is, while I think there is some validity in what you are saying, I do not think it is necessarily true. Here is my opinion in a nutshell:

1. The Ripper murders was a Police criminal investigation.
2. The only reason the SB would have become involved in any inquiry concerning a Ripper suspect is if there was some aspect of that inquiry that overlapped with SB jurisdiction.

So yes, presumably, if the MET was aware that Tumblety had Fenian connections, they might would consulted SB about him... preumably to get more information about him. Then again, they might not have.

You didnt answer my other question, by the way.

RH

[Chris]

But Littlechild obviousy was aware of Tumblety as a ripper suspect it would appear he named him in Simms letter. So if he dosnt name him in the ledgers you have to rule him out, especially if he is naming someone else now.

The impression I get from Clutterbuck's thesis is that Tumblety isn't mentioned at all in the ledger. That suggests he didn't in fact have any Fenian connections, or at least any that Special Branch thought worth noting. That being the case, it would hardly be surprising that he wasn't named in the ledger as a suspect in the Whitechapel Murders!

P.S. Wouldn't this discussion be better conducted in the thread that Simon Wood started a while ago for discussion of these records? We don't seem to be talking about Aaron Kozminski.

[robhouse]

Hi Chris.

"That suggests he didn't in fact have any Fenian connections, or at least any that Special Branch thought worth noting."

I am not an expert in Tumblety at all, so I have no idea if he had Fenian connections. But yes, if he didn't then there is no reason he should be in the SB files.

"We don't seem to be talking about Aaron Kozminski."

Good point... I think the reason we got off on this tangent in the first place is that Trevor suggested that if Kozminski's name did not appear in the Chief Constable's Register, then we could safely assume he was not a Police suspect. I don't see that this argument makes any sense at all. And yes, if we are going to continue discussing Tumblety etc., we might as well move to another thread.

Rob

[mariab]

Before we move into the other thread (there is one thread appropriately named The SB ledgers, but it has been “inactive“ for a dew days: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4688), can I please state the following?
As far as I've heard, there are not any separate/specific Special Branch "files" pertaining to the Whitechapel murders. (But as a newbie I haven't yet read Stewart Evans' Scotland Yard investigates, so I might stand corrected on this.) What exists is:
1) The Chief Constable's Register, which some Ripperologists have gone through – no idea who, though.
2) And there is the SB ledgers, which contain
- A register of correspondence sent to Special Branch by the Metropolitan Police, as well as by other Police Forces, by the Home Office, by other government departments and by members of the public having held a function as witnesses, informants, or lawyers. (And I've personally seen some pages from this register.)
- An index of the reports submitted by the SB officers. I think that the original reports to which this index pertains are “lost“.(?)
- Another index of people and topics pertaining to the aforementioned correspondence.
If I got any of this wrong (which is very possible), I'd be endlessly grateful if someone corrected me. But Mr Marriot stated exactly the same structure for the ledgers in his earlier post of today.

As for Tumblety:
Phil Carter wrote: As regards suspects mentioned, Tumblety may have had Fenian links, being an Irish American.
Even if Tumblety had no Fenian links, I'm under the impression that EVERY Isrish/American in London was been investigated pertaining to Fenianism at the time.
Robhouse wrote (addressed to Trevor Marriot): I am interested in your statement that "i know that in the ledgers there is an entry from Littlechild naming a suspect for the ripper." How do you know this? To be honest, I am unclear as to what exactly you have seen already. I assume you have seen the Constable's Register already, with the entry from Littlechild, but with the suspect's name redacted. Is that correct?
Yes, Mr Marriot, that would be my question too, please!
It's true that Clutterbuck in his dissertation claims that Tumblety isn't mentioned at all in the ledgers. But the leagers are JUST indexes, not a continuous, elaborate text. Therefore I could very well imagine that the mentioning of “William Mac Grath“ might be connected to Tumblety, since Tumblety has been considered as a suspect and possibly as a Fenian by Littlechild and others. Someone (R. J. Palmer?) REALLY ought to research the possibility of a Fenian connection between Tumblety and William Magrath the painter. (IF this is indeed the same “Mac Grath“ mentioned in the ledgers.)
What would be a great disappoinment is if Mr Marriot gets access to the ledgers, and the other 2 suspects besides “Mac Grath“ end up being “Dr D“ and Ostrog!! But I severely doubt this...
Thank you and

[jason_c]

But do you know if there were any files ?

Anderson, Swanson and NacNaughten must have got their information from somewhere. Files on individual suspects is the most plausible answer.

[Trevor Marriott]

Dear Trevor

When you mention the main board of suspects and the reports relating to these, do you mean the likes of Kosminsky, Tumblety, Druitt, Cutbush?

YES INDEED

[Trevor Marriott]

Anderson, Swanson and NacNaughten must have got their information from somewhere. Files on individual suspects is the most plausible answer.

i have answered this earlier today. As far as Kosminski is concerned as is known he never came to the forefront until 1891 when he threatened his sister with a knife. At that time i have no doubt he was listed in the Whitechapel file simply because of the fact he was from whitechapel and had been found threatening a female with a knife and was deemed to be mad.

magnagthens memo was compiled in 1894 from information that was recorded on the whitechapel murders which was held at Scotland yard. Not specific suspect files had there been there would have been much more info set out in the memo in my opinion and the police officers who so many rely on would have been able to volunteer much more information than t the different names they all gave

[Chris]

You didnt answer my other question, by the way.

Yes, I noticed that, too.

Apparently the "simple answer" thing is a strictly one-way arrangement.

[mariab]

Robhouse's question to Trevor Marriot:
I am interested in your statement that "i know that in the ledgers there is an entry from Littlechild naming a suspect for the ripper." How do you know this? To be honest, I am unclear as to what exactly you have seen already. I assume you have seen the Constable's Register already, with the entry from Littlechild, but with the suspect's name redacted. Is that correct?
I'm DYING to hear the answer to the above question.

[MrTwibbs]

I refer to another post related and my opinion below

Dear Chris, Chris, Martin and Rob

If Aaron was suffer from Schizophrenia his condition is partencially consistant with how we would expect a Jack the Ripper suffering from the same condition to behave. Schizophrenic serial killers are extremely rare but it is not unusual for schizophrenics to become completely harmless once taken out of society. It is difficult to make comparrissons with the likes of Peter Sutcliff (who is by no means a typical schizophrenic) because of modern drugs and treatments.

My brother who works on a regular basis with suffers of the condition described to me how the illness goes through phazes known as psychotic episodes. These early psychotic episodes typically start between the age of 19-22. They last for a period of 12 to 18 weeks..

An age that clearly matches Aaron Kosminski's and a period which mirrors the time period known as the Autumn of terror. The illness would progress over a period of time in waves, the sufferer appering to get better and then relapsing into a worse condition until they reach a faze in their late thirties known as burn out. There is no reason to beleive that Jack the Ripper would necessarily be a raving and obviously violent homicidal murderer..

Indeed logic would dictate that JtR was plausable enough to his victims.

In my brothers opinion it is possible that Aaron Kosminski and JtR were one of the same person. If they suffered from Schizophrenia.

Re: Kaminsky. The reason given for Kaminsky's/Cohen mental condition is/was syphilis....My brother believes mental deteriation of suffers of this condition would have happened over a much longer time frame than the few years required for this theory. It takes some time for a sufferer of syphilis to go mad, many years.

Anyway many thanks again for your posts.

Yours Jeff

And the hard facts demonstrate he(whoever JTR was) was not some raving loony but someone who had the intent to kill and he had very specific goals. if he was a frenzied loony or was having these Schizophrenia attacks or "in waves" then surely the murders would have taken place in a less systematic fashion? i.e. during different times of the day (not always in the early hours of the morning)

The murder's were not frenzied attacks as can be seen by the stab wounds and removal of some organs. Plus when you geo profile his murder route it is clear to see the murders were committed with a certain amount of common sense. Note each of the five murders is further away from the next almost as if in a circle or Z shape. This is the perfect route to take if you are looking to commit crimes one after the other as it allows you to walk away back home rather than retrace your same path home. Again you'd need to have planned this beforehand in order to achieve that.

Do we know if Kosminsky/Cohen could speak English? I cannot see Kosminsky who eats out of gutters and refuses to bathe as setting a prostitute at ease. Did he not weigh only 8 stones? The man would stick out like a sore thumb surely?

The only evidence for Kosminsky is Swanson/Anderson.
Anderson stated in his Lighter Side of My Official Life", that his suspect was a Polish Jew, and that the only person to ever have a good view of the murderer unhesitatingly identified him but refused to swear aginst him. According to the Swanson Marginalia this took place at a Police Seaside Convalescent Home (probably Brighton, definitely after 1890).
If that is true then why didn't Macnaughton mention it in his internal memo to Scotland Yard? He actually said no suspect was ever identified and remember his memo was a private one to Scotland yard and written a few years after the murders unlike Anderson's which was written some twenty years later.

Anderson then goes onto say

"Having regard to the interest attaching to this case, I am almost tempted to disclose the identity of the murderer and of the pressman who wrote the letter above referred to. But no public benefit would result from such a course, and the traditions of my old department would suffer. I will merely add that the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer unhesitatingly identified the suspect the instant he was confronted with him ; but he refused to give evidence against him"


So if the Ripper was identified why the hell didn't they put him under 24 hour surveillance(at that time)? surely doing so would have either stopped him there and then and if on the other he killed again they'd be at least one constable to witness it? Why wait until 1891 to put him in an asylum?

Apparently according to the Torah, which I believe is the jewish holy book? a Jew cannot dob in a fellow Jew? if this is true even today then there's a big problem isn't there?

Kosminsky was a harmless person and his only big issue (pardon the pun) was masturbating frequently and probably in public. He apparently threatened his sister with a knife? oh big deal...how many of us out there have done this and poissibly even both? I know I can be honest and say yes I have done this before but it does not make me a murderer does it. In those days of course they were not as streetwise as we are now so things needs to be assessed with that in mind. 2 Detectives of today would be far more effective than 10 probably back in those times.

[MrTwibbs]

Sorry to add that to that if Kosminski was identified in 1890 at this so called Seaside home, why did they wait two years to do this?

And then why did Macnaughton state Kosminsky was one of 3 suspects best suited to being JTR.


My reasoning is that Kosminski was not JTR and it was not he that was identified in 1890 but someone else?

[Rubyretro]

I have to say that I almost never comment on posts which don't involve my favourite 'suspect' -GH.

However, I do read all of them.

I agree with Mr Twibbs on this thread.