When did investigators start watching Kozminski?

[Fisherman]

You are not the only Hard Lechmereite Christer.
I used the plural in my post did I not. If I had meant you, I would have said so.

I see however from your remarks that you are actually not denying that later Bodies are indeed includied in the possible count, why then the objection? Yes lets get back to the thread, of a man suspected at the time, why we are not sure? but suspected he certainly seems to have been.

Steve

If I say that the bodies must be looked at with interest, since they were found in close proximity to where Charles Lechmere had a stall in Broadway Market - how on earth can you twist that into a denial on my behalf that the bodies can be included in a possible count...?

How do these things work? What drug do I have to use to understand it? Is there something that I can put in my pipe that will reveal it to me?

You will not get any denial or conformation from me on the score, for the simple reason that I do not know enough about the cases to decide either way. From what I have learnt, there can be no certainty either way. Edward may know more - he, I presume, is the "hard Lechmerite" you speak of. If that is true, you are in trouble - nobody on planet Earth knows more about Charles Lechmere than he does, so he will be in a position to make a very good call.

Then again, he is probably too biased to see how the naysayer brigade is so much more sensible and discerning than he is.

Now - Kosminski! Yes, he was suspected. No, he was not the Ripper/Torso killer, who were in all probability one and the same man.

It´s much like Chapman.

And Bury.

And Tumblety.

And Druitt.

And a whole lot more.

[Batman]

I conclude from that that London was the first city to experience two very different sets of killings at the same time .
You've pointed out a couple of similarities but not mentioned the differences .
The heads and various limbs were removed .
They were killed at locations other than those they were found at and dumped .... almost certainly involving more than one person when looking at it logistically
We've seen it many times over the years , people's temptation to tie one killer into another .
Chapman , hh Holmes , Cream
It doesn't work for me , sorry
I will accept the Whitehall torso is highly likely to be linked to the Whitechapel murders due to the date the arm was dumped in the thames, and the timing of the dumping in the vault as I am not a lover of extreme coincidence
Linked but not in the way you think

The thing is Chapman does stand out here. Otherwise, there are two serial killers living in a 9km^2 area at the same time. Chapman in 1888 and JtR in 1888. If we add in the torso killer, then that's three at the same time.

Even in a population density of 250,000, that's unheard of without upping the density to 400,000 but also the area covering more to extend to at least 400km^2. That's where we find London, Ontario, which had three at the same time.

Even today look at the serial killers from London, living in London at the time, say since the 1940s. Even today the population density would be nearly the whole population of London and it's entire area.

Anything I have read on Chapman just clears up errors made about his life but doesn't end up exonerating him by any means.

[packers stem]

The thing is Chapman does stand out here. Otherwise, there are two serial killers living in a 9km^2 area at the same time. Chapman in 1888 and JtR in 1888. If we add in the torso killer, then that's three at the same time.

Even in a population density of 250,000, that's unheard of without upping the density to 400,000 but also the area covering more to extend to at least 400km^2. That's where we find London, Ontario, which had three at the same time.

Even today look at the serial killers from London, living in London at the time, say since the 1940s. Even today the population density would be nearly the whole population of London and it's entire area.

Anything I have read on Chapman just clears up errors made about his life but doesn't end up exonerating him by any means.

Leaving a poisoner out of it if we can ....
Ask yourself under what circumstances possible is it likely that there could be two sets of random killings in the same location and time frame which although murders and the use of a knife , are different enough in MO to make it obvious that they weren't by the same hand.
For this you will have to think outside the box and forget anything to do with serial killers do this or that profiling rubbish

[Batman]

Leaving a poisoner out of it if we can ....
Ask yourself under what circumstances possible is it likely that there could be two sets of random killings in the same location and time frame which although murders and the use of a knife , are different enough in MO to make it obvious that they weren't by the same hand.
For this you will have to think outside the box and forget anything to do with serial killers do this or that profiling rubbish

I have come to believe and accept that SK's can totally change MO more than we previously thought and also have cool-down periods that last decades. Does this impact what you were asking?

[packers stem]

I have come to believe and accept that SK's can totally change MO more than we previously thought and also have cool-down periods that last decades. Does this impact what you were asking?

No
The arm in the thames and Chapman's murder were same day or close so nothing to do with the passage of time .
I've no interest in Chapman(poisoner)at all
That's your choice if you wish to go down that route
What I'm saying is look at the Whitehall torso and JTR and see what conclusions you draw

[Elamarna]

If I say that the bodies must be looked at with interest, since they were found in close proximity to where Charles Lechmere had a stall in Broadway Market - how on earth can you twist that into a denial on my behalf that the bodies can be included in a possible count...?
You will not get any denial or conformation from me on the score, for the simple reason that I do not know enough about the cases to decide either way. From what I have learnt, there can be no certainty either way
How do these things work? What drug do I have to use to understand it? Is there something that I can put in my pipe that will reveal it to me. You will not get any denial or conformation from me on the score, for the simple reason that I do not know enough about the cases to decide either way. From what I have learnt, there can be no certainty either way
How do these things work? What drug do I have to use to understand it? Is there something that I can put in my pipe that will reveal it to me

Your previous post objected most strongly to my comment that some supporters of Lechmere claim murders upto 1899 may be by the same hand.

I merely point out that while you object to the comment, you do say that some bodies MUST be looked at has being possibly linked. How then is my comment a problem?
How on earth does that come out at my twisting your resonse into a denial, i do just the opposite. The response is astounding.

. Edward may know more - he, I presume, is the "hard Lechmerite" you speak of. If that is true, you are in trouble - nobody on planet Earth knows more about Charles Lechmere than he does, so he will be in a position to make a very good call.
Then again, he is probably too biased to see how the naysayer brigade is so much more sensible and discerning than he is.

I spoke in plural, not about a single person.

In trouble?
Edward of course supports Lechmere, does this by definition mean Lechmere is undoubtedly the man? Can Ed's views not be challenged and questioned? (By the way I have a lot of respect for Mr Stow) .

Now - Kosminski! Yes, he was suspected. No, he was not the Ripper/Torso killer, who were in all probability one and the same man.

In your opinion, not so far surported by any tangible facts

It´s much like Chapman.

And Bury.

And Tumblety.

And Druitt.

And a whole lot more.

Agreed and one can add Cahrles Lechmere to that list.



Steve

[Elamarna]

To all, I am most sorry about the diversion of the thread.

To get back to Kos, my view is that he was one of several looked at after the double event.
That he may later have been watched on several occassion and that Sagar and Cox may not have been watching the same man, but probably were, and may not have done so at the same time.


Steve

[Batman]

No
The arm in the thames and Chapman's murder were same day or close so nothing to do with the passage of time .
I've no interest in Chapman(poisoner)at all
That's your choice if you wish to go down that route
What I'm saying is look at the Whitehall torso and JTR and see what conclusions you draw

I have a pretty elaborate one if you want to read it. It's a low chance, but it's the best I can do...

JtR is a true necrophiliac.

This makes JtR more Ed Gein, than say the Yorkshire Ripper.

As a note, I also have R Michael Gordon's book, but nothing to do with the link I just gave you there.

[Fisherman]

The thing is Chapman does stand out here. Otherwise, there are two serial killers living in a 9km^2 area at the same time. Chapman in 1888 and JtR in 1888. If we add in the torso killer, then that's three at the same time.

Even in a population density of 250,000, that's unheard of without upping the density to 400,000 but also the area covering more to extend to at least 400km^2. That's where we find London, Ontario, which had three at the same time.

Even today look at the serial killers from London, living in London at the time, say since the 1940s. Even today the population density would be nearly the whole population of London and it's entire area.

Anything I have read on Chapman just clears up errors made about his life but doesn't end up exonerating him by any means.

Chapman was a poisoner. He did not seem interested in the insides of women at all.
There have been many instances of two simultaneous serial killers at work in overlapping areas. But there are no examples of two eviscerating serialists under such circumstances.
Personally, I have no doubts that the 1873 torso victim and Mary Kelly fell prey to the same man.
And there goes Chapman.

[Fisherman]

I conclude from that that London was the first city to experience two very different sets of killings at the same time .
You've pointed out a couple of similarities but not mentioned the differences .
The heads and various limbs were removed .
They were killed at locations other than those they were found at and dumped .... almost certainly involving more than one person when looking at it logistically
We've seen it many times over the years , people's temptation to tie one killer into another .
Chapman , hh Holmes , Cream
It doesn't work for me , sorry
I will accept the Whitehall torso is highly likely to be linked to the Whitechapel murders due to the date the arm was dumped in the thames, and the timing of the dumping in the vault as I am not a lover of extreme coincidence
Linked but not in the way you think

As I keep saying: the differences are not as important as the similarities.

No matter how large the differences are, we may still be looking at the same perpetrator. Kürten is a good example of how the police refused to believe that one man only could be repsonsible for the Düsseldorf deeds - the killings were too dissimilar, they thought.

But if we have extremely odd and rare similarities, then there cannot be two perps at work. Two killers will not simultaneously come up with an idea to burn a tree into the backs of their victims, for example - it is not within the realms of possibilities.

So the similarities trump the dissimilarities. You speak of the dismemberments, but the explanation seems a pretty obvious one to me: The Ripper did not have to get rid of his victims to protect his identity. The man who killed the torso victims did, in all probability.

So what it all seem to boil down to is sheer necessity.

No two serial killers will simultaneously cut the belly open all the way, pluck out uteri and cut away the abdominal wall in large flaps. It just does not happen.

[Batman]

Chapman was a poisoner. He did not seem interested in the insides of women at all.
There have been many instances of two simultaneous serial killers at work in overlapping areas. But there are no examples of two eviscerating serialists under such circumstances.
Personally, I have no doubts that the 1873 torso victim and Mary Kelly fell prey to the same man.
And there goes Chapman.

Chapman was most certainly interested in the insides of a woman. When he was arrested they found he had banned images of the insides of women, women missing limbs and a head too and just a torso. How about just a torso with the insides exposed? Yep he had that too.

Would that surprise you?

The thing about torsos in the Thames is that they have been always there. Like literally through the middle ages onwards bodies have been turning up in Thames and many of them missing parts, right up until today. It is still happening. Trow's book is very good. The historical chapter on pre-ripper times torsos is chapter 2 - The River of Death.

[Fisherman]

Your previous post objected most strongly to my comment that some supporters of Lechmere claim murders upto 1899 may be by the same hand.
Steve

No, I did not. I objected to any inference that I personally would have said that it was a done deal. The two cases are of great interest for reasons given, but that is all that has been said by me.

Please, please, please don´t misrepresent what I say. It has gone way too far way too many times, and ought not be repeated once more.

[Fisherman]

Chapman was most certainly interested in the insides of a woman. When he was arrested they found he had banned images of the insides of women, women missing limbs and a head too and just a torso. How about just a torso with the insides exposed? Yep he had that too.

Would that surprise you?

The thing about torsos in the Thames is that they have been always there. Like literally through the middle ages onwards bodies have been turning up in Thames and many of them missing parts, right up until today. It is still happening. Trow's book is very good. The historical chapter on pre-ripper times torsos is chapter 2 - The River of Death.

George Chapman never inflicted any damage on any of his known victims that infer in any way that he was the Ripper. The idea of a poisoner (a method of murder that allows the killer to do away with people without any physical contact whatsoever) would work extra hours as an eviscerator (the most intimate method of killing imaginable with extreme physical contact) seems a very odd one to me.

Compared to those differences, the differences between the torso murders and the ripper ones are nothing.

By the way, we must also disagree on Trow´s book. I do not think it is a very good book, far from it.

[Batman]

George Chapman never inflicted any damage on any of his known victims that infer in any way that he was the Ripper. The idea of a poisoner (a method of murder that allows the killer to do away with people without any physical contact whatsoever) would work extra hours as an eviscerator (the most intimate method of killing imaginable with extreme physical contact) seems a very odd one to me.

Compared to those differences, the differences between the torso murders and the ripper ones are nothing.

By the way, we must also disagree on Trow´s book. I do not think it is a very good book, far from it.

I believe in MO changes. The more we learn about SKs the more it becomes apparent they can change MO and one reason for changing MO is the heat from police.

Chapman has a small collection of books. One book banned until the 1960s was Aristotles 'Works'. It contains 'family physician' material. Midwifery.

With images like this...

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/647/20468869698_a7c86f0f38_o.png

https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1878/29702146427_1c7bac325f_b.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/_BTpmgg9rrAw/S6pvWKuokDI/AAAAAAAAAO0/tnBl7Hv3ags/s1600/Aristotle+1822+2.jpg

Flaps galore too.

[Simon Wood]

The Whitechapel murders were not the work of a serial killer. That idea is folklore, not history.