My theory on Kosminski

[John G]

There’s been tons of research.

Unfortunately as with all such issues there is always an exception.

And if you accept even the C4 we start to see facial mutilations, so an escalation can’t be totally ruled out

Yes, of course, although I think Kelly suggests a much more frenzied, disorganized, personal and unskilled type of murder than is the case w0tg the earlier victims.

Of course, that in itself doesn't prove that Kelly was murdered by a different killer, as you could argue that the perpetrator lost control because he was, say, highly intoxicated, suffering from a declining mental state or that Kelly said or did something that enraged him.

[Fisherman]

Would it really make much difference? I don't see this "organised/disorganised" distinction as much more than a pair of descriptive labels, and I'm not sure how much predictive value they have. Why shouldn't an "organised" killer mutilate a face, anyway?

The distinctions are old and not much in use anymore - but the book John quoted from used them, and so it needed elaborating on.

I think there is a distinctive difference, but that is not to say that an organised killer would not disfigure a face - that has happened many a time, and has many a time been tied to an aquaintance between killer and victim.

Disorganized killers, though, would be more likely to attack parts of the body for more irrational reasons, or at least that´s how I see it. To my mind, I would expect a lot more "irrational" damage to be found on victims killed by disorganized offenders.

[John G]

Well, John, it´s not me who is either right or wrong about the 19 per cent figure, it´s the author of the book you quoted from.

What I am saying about the facial damage and the abdominal flaps is that my understanding ids that they are both exponents of the same inspiration ground. Nothing else. And consequentially, neither of them were tied to any personal aquaintance on behalf of the killer visavi any of the victims.

It also need saying that my contention is that he did not need to damage allfaces or take away the abdomen in flaps from all his victims. These things were just colours on a large palette he used, if I am correct.

Perhaps. Although, of course, that is just one of a 1001 possible alternative explanations.

Okay... perhaps not quite that many!

[Fisherman]

Yes, of course, although I think Kelly suggests a much more frenzied, disorganized, personal and unskilled type of murder than is the case w0tg the earlier victims.

Of course, that in itself doesn't prove that Kelly was murdered by a different killer, as you could argue that the perpetrator lost control because he was, say, highly intoxicated, suffering from a declining mental state or that Kelly said or did something that enraged him.

Kelly and Chapman both had their abdominal walls removed in large panes. Anybody who thinks that points to anything but the same killer, hands up now, please.

[Sam Flynn]

that is not to say that an organised killer would not disfigure a face - that has happened many a time

Indeed so, Fish.

[Pontius2000]

As a matter of interest, what's your source for saying the oldest club member was 29, that most of the 100 people there that night weren't members, and that the 100 people there were drinking?

Thanks
Paul

Tom Wescott's book. You'd have to ask him his sources. But I believe he states that the actual club membership was fairly small and ranged in age from 17-29. He named the oldest member, Morris Eagle maybe? He also stated the club had someone posted outside soliciting new potential members to come in and drink. So it's very possible that JtR was invited in off the streets that night for some alcohol, which got him into the killing mode, which led to Stride's murder.

[PaulB]

Tom Wescott's book. You'd have to ask him his sources. But I believe he states that the actual club membership was fairly small and ranged in age from 17-29. He named the oldest member, Morris Eagle maybe? He also stated the club had someone posted outside soliciting new potential members to come in and drink. So it's very possible that JtR was invited in off the streets that night for some alcohol, which got him into the killing mode, which led to Stride's murder.

Thanks. I'll ask Tom. I've read his books, but that information must have bypassed me. As far as I was aware, it was a political club, anarchists and socialists, who met for political discussions and lectures, not a mens' drinking club.

[Pontius2000]

Thanks. I'll ask Tom. I've read his books, but that information must have bypassed me. As far as I was aware, it was a political club, anarchists and socialists, who met for political discussions and lectures, not a mens' drinking club.

According to his book, they were "technically" a political club, but in actual function were as much a social/drinking club for young Jewish males than anything else.

[John G]

Thanks. I'll ask Tom. I've read his books, but that information must have bypassed me. As far as I was aware, it was a political club, anarchists and socialists, who met for political discussions and lectures, not a mens' drinking club.

Hi Paul,

"Of all the club members who figure in the Ripper investigation, it is ...Philip Krantz, who stands as the club elder at the ripe old age of 29 in 1888. All of the members appear under thirty, with many in their teens." (Westcott, 2017).

Tom doesn't say it was a "drinking club". He states it "was a collection of young, angry men, who had turned their backs on religion, and wanted to bring down the establishment by any means necessary." (ibid) He does, however, add that beer was served at the club.

[Paddy]

Tom doesn't say it was a "drinking club". He states it "was a collection of young, angry men, who had turned their backs on religion, and wanted to bring down the establishment by any means necessary

Then one of those angry young men could have been a a perfect candidate for the writing of the Goulston street Grafitto, turning against the established Jews.

One other thing that was interesting on Kosminskis Asylum notes was the fact that he thought he should still be under Russian Consulate...This was crossed out though and is quite hard to read, but is words to that effect

Pat......

[John G]

Then one of those angry young men could have been a a perfect candidate for the writing of the Goulston street Grafitto, turning against the established Jews.

One other thing that was interesting on Kosminskis Asylum notes was the fact that he thought he should still be under Russian Consulate...This was crossed out though and is quite hard to read, but is words to that effect

Pat......

Hi Pat,

Except, as I've argued at length on the GSG thread, I doubt think the graffito was written on the night of the Double Event because it would have been far too dark.

[Paddy]

Thanks John .....Will have to have a read of the other thread. I agree if it was dark, it makes it much less likely that Jack wrote it.
Pat.....

[kjab3112]

When I say that Kosminski was probably medicated, I don't mean he was PROPERLY medicated, and certainly not adequately treated for schizophrenia. What I mean is that any asylum inmate prone to any kind of outbursts would have probably been given some sort of mood stabilizer or sedative, at least on occasion.

But whether or not that's true is beside the point. Most people who dismiss Kosminski do so because he was not violent in the asylum. My main point there is that (1) of the preferred targets- female prostitutes- are absent, and (2) if the main exacerbating factor- alcohol- is absent, then there is literally no reason to believe that JtR would've acted even remotely the same in an asylum as he did on the streets where both triggers were readily available.

Of the standard (current) sedative groups, only Chloral Hydrate was available in the late 19th C (from what I would now use).Barbiturates, although identified, did not have an effective form until 1905. Benzodiazepines were not synthesised until the 1950s. Admittedly there were opiates and ether/chloroform type substances but these would be more of a rapid take down type scenario not regular sedation.

Paul

[rjpalmer]

The "case notes" are periodic notes concerning his physical health. They make very little mention of his behaviour, his mental condition, how his hallucinations manifested themselves, or anything he said. Whether or not they would have reflected anything the asylum authorities were told by the police is therefore moot.

From 'Jack the Ripper --The Facts' by Paul Begg (2006) p.487:

‘In 1891 Melville Macnaghten wrote to Banstead requesting that the Convict Supervision Office be informed if Ostrog was released. There is no suggestion that Banstead were informed that Ostrog was potentially dangerous, possibly a multiple murderer and perhaps Jacks the Ripper.’

Paul, you draw conclusions about Ostrog's alleged violence not being reported to Banstead, but seem to resist this same possibility in the case of Kosminki's committal?

The bald fact that AK's case notes are so mundane and that he was ultimately sent to Leavesden as a harmless imbecile surely supports the conclusion that the attendants were never informed that he was "possibly a multiple murderer and Jack the Ripper?" No?

Perhaps I am dense, but I see no difference, and, indeed what might be called the "cluelessness" of the medical attendants seems even more evident in the case notes for Kosminski.

[Scott Nelson]

For what it's worth, I think workhouse and asylum authorities were never informed about police suspicions that the hairdresser, AK, was a Ripper suspect, because he wasn't.