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  • Help needed deciphering RMG

    I have read this over and over and I cannot make sense of it so am begging for assistance.

    My problem is, first he says "Godley wrote this" then underneath he says "someone else made this up and Godley would not have liked it".

    So is RMG saying that Godley wrote it --- or not?

    And does anyone here own the cited publication?

    And yes, before anyone says it, I know to be wary of Gordon

    Helena

    Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

    Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html

  • #2
    It doesn't seem to make sense. Unless he means "... ostensibly written by Inspector Godley..." [but actually written by the unknown authors mentioned later].

    This would explain the relevance of mentioning Godley's retirement and possible reaction to the piece.

    That's the only way I can make sense of it (interesting use of the plural "authors" by the way) but as it stands, you are right - it is contradictory.

    Best wishes,
    Steve.

    Comment


    • #3
      They are talking about two accounts. First they say Godley made a report, for the 1908 magazine/newspaper and then a fictional account appeared. It seems to be telling us that there was a real one and then a fictional piece that was contradictory that Godley probably wouldn't have approved of. It makes sense if they are two separate things, but just.

      Mike
      huh?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Steven Russell View Post
        It doesn't seem to make sense. Unless he means "... ostensibly written by Inspector Godley..." [but actually written by the unknown authors mentioned later].

        This would explain the relevance of mentioning Godley's retirement and possible reaction to the piece.

        That's the only way I can make sense of it (interesting use of the plural "authors" by the way) but as it stands, you are right - it is contradictory.

        Best wishes,
        Steve.
        Thanks for your input Steve. What if the indented block quote ISN'T the piece in the "Police Review and Parade Gossip"? Would that work?

        Writing this full biog of Chapman, I feel I can't just ignore this. But I don't suppose there is a hope in hell of me getting to read that magazine unless I go to London again - ugh.

        Helena
        Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

        Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes, I believe that might work as Mike suggests. This looks, on reflection, better than my idea.

          Best wishes,
          Steve.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by The Good Michael View Post
            They are talking about two accounts. First they say Godley made a report, for the 1908 magazine/newspaper and then a fictional account appeared. It seems to be telling us that there was a real one and then a fictional piece that was contradictory that Godley probably wouldn't have approved of. It makes sense if they are two separate things, but just.

            Mike
            I see what you mean Mike. But Gordon then gives no citation for the fictional piece quoted, no author, no publication, nowt. Terribly annoying, most especially since I have seen that same quote in a newspaper, again with no source referenced.

            Helena
            Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

            Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html

            Comment


            • #7
              As someone who has been in the cellar of The White HarT I find the 'fictional' account very interesting.

              Though the description is brief, it does recollect in my head. The cellar is indeed two rooms with Chapmans shop at the back.

              Of course, this may not be the same cellar however it does sound similar. I've photos if anyone is interested.

              Monty




              Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

              http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Monty View Post
                As someone who has been in the cellar of The White HarT I find the 'fictional' account very interesting.

                Though the description is brief, it does recollect in my head. The cellar is indeed two rooms with Chapmans shop at the back.

                Of course, this may not be the same cellar however it does sound similar. I've photos if anyone is interested.

                Monty
                Alas, the quote related to The Crown, 213 Borough High Street, where he was arrested. But I would LOVE to see photos of the White Hart email me please hastings.press@gmail.com I have always been intrigued by this idea of a barbershop under a pub!

                Helena
                Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

                Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html

                Comment


                • #9
                  I suspected as much Helena, however the passage described is very similar re the layout.

                  I shall upload the images here when I've located them.

                  Monty




                  Author of Capturing Jack the Ripper.

                  http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/1445621622

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HelenaWojtczak View Post
                    I have read this over and over and I cannot make sense of it so am begging for assistance.

                    My problem is, first he says "Godley wrote this" then underneath he says "someone else made this up and Godley would not have liked it".

                    So is RMG saying that Godley wrote it --- or not?

                    And does anyone here own the cited publication?

                    And yes, before anyone says it, I know to be wary of Gordon

                    Helena
                    Hello Helena

                    Gordon's account of the arrest of Chapman, on page 105 of The Poison Murders of Jack the Ripper: His Final Crimes, Trial and Execution, indicates that the suspect was arrested quietly. So it's the lurid story of Chapman fleeing to the cellar with the pistols that's the piece of fiction that is attributed to Godley. Gordon is saying that it is not known what the retired Scotland Yard man's reaction was to this account that was attributed to him.

                    All the best

                    Chris
                    Christopher T. George
                    Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conference
                    just held in Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018.
                    For information about RipperCon, go to http://rippercon.com/
                    RipperCon 2018 talks can now be heard at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
                      Hello Helena

                      Gordon's account of the arrest of Chapman, on page 105 of The Poison Murders of Jack the Ripper: His Final Crimes, Trial and Execution, indicates that the suspect was arrested quietly. So it's the lurid story of Chapman fleeing to the cellar with the pistols that's the piece of fiction that is attributed to Godley. Gordon is saying that it is not known what the retired Scotland Yard man's reaction was to this account that was attributed to him.

                      All the best

                      Chris
                      Hello Chris!

                      If that is so then (as Steve pointed out) Gordon would surely say "purportedly written by Godley" not "written by Godley". He gives the citation of Godley's story, and omits the citation for the other story, which lends credence to the notion that the two are the same, which makes no sense.


                      What are my chances of ever finding out who wrote that fictionalised account? R. M Gordon must know, since as you say he quoted it in one of his books.

                      I hope I am not being misunderstood on here again.

                      I know the true account of the arrest, I would love to know who wrote the fiction. It's all part of creating a biog that covers everything - the truth, the myths. I am diligent and that means citing references.
                      Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

                      Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by HelenaWojtczak View Post
                        Hello Chris!

                        If that is so then (as Steve pointed out) Gordon would surely say "purportedly written by Godley" not "written by Godley". He gives the citation of Godley's story, and omits the citation for the other story, which lends credence to the notion that the two are the same, which makes no sense.


                        What are my chances of ever finding out who wrote that fictionalised account? R. M Gordon must know, since as you say he quoted it in one of his books.

                        I hope I am not being misunderstood on here again.

                        I know the true account of the arrest, I would love to know who wrote the fiction. It's all part of creating a biog that covers everything - the truth, the myths. I am diligent and that means citing references.
                        Hi Helena

                        I think it's more likely that it's just another newspaperman being creative. By the same token we might begin to doubt those quotes about Chapman credited to Abberline that appeared in the PMG. I don't think Gordon necessarily knows who wrote the article with comments credited to Godley. The passage in his book just isn't well well written so that I think is part of the reason for your confusion.

                        All the best

                        Chris
                        Christopher T. George
                        Organizer, RipperCon #JacktheRipper-#True Crime Conference
                        just held in Baltimore, April 7-8, 2018.
                        For information about RipperCon, go to http://rippercon.com/
                        RipperCon 2018 talks can now be heard at http://www.casebook.org/podcast/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by ChrisGeorge View Post
                          I don't think Gordon necessarily knows who wrote the article with comments credited to Godley.
                          But he must know where it comes from, he must have seen something (book, mag, paper) in order to have sat and copy-typed it. Occasonally one gets a cutting or scan which has no source. If it were me I'd put a footnote saying, the source of this article has been lost.

                          Mark Oldridge has written to me and he thinks the opposite of you -- that it's one article not two.

                          So we are all pretty confused

                          Best wishes

                          Helena
                          Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

                          Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Metropolitan Police administrative officer Debra Gosling, based at Blackfriars, Southwark, researched and wrote a double page article on Inspector Godley's career and another on George Chapman for the Southwark News of 24th April 2003.

                            She did not get this story from the cutting in my first posting, that is from the Poison Murders of Jack the Ripper published five years later in 2008.

                            Note that in HER version, both guns are discharged. If both Gosling and Gordon are quoting from the same source, where did she get the information from that he actually fired shots?

                            Her piece was supposed to be a serious piece of historical research, by the way, and it cited her police employment to make her seem like a diligent, trustworthy, in-the-know author.

                            (Apologies for not putting the source of the first cutting! I did put it on Photobucket where the image is uploaded, thinking you could all see the reference. I am clearly still a novice at uploading images for his board.)

                            Last edited by HelenaWojtczak; 09-15-2011, 12:19 AM.
                            Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

                            Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Mark sent me this link to a page from 2003 where Gosling herself claims that she did not embellish the articles she found in the Police Review and her local paper. She did not explain why her version is different, however.I have the local Southwark cuttings downstairs and will look at them in the morning.

                              http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4924/6026.html
                              Helena Wojtczak BSc (Hons) FRHistS.

                              Author of 'Jack the Ripper at Last? George Chapman, the Southwark Poisoner'. Click this link : - http://www.hastingspress.co.uk/chapman.html

                              Comment

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