Help needed deciphering RMG

[Natalie Severn]

he had an american flag, a rifle, 2 revolvers and a sword in the famous photo,

i expect he brought this lot back from America and told his customers that he was an Indiana Jones style game hunter, you know, bullshitted like crazy to his customers.

no idea if these guns are fully working or decomissioned replicas, is Chapman a ``smooth poisoner`` only, no to me he appears a ``hands on`` violent bully, whose living in a fantasy world, a Walter Mitty type of person.

I agree with you and he clearly enjoyed sporting killing machines as evidenced by the photo.

Chapman hasn't yet been successfully 'ruled out' by any means.

For me the reappearance after 30 years of silence of Dennis Rader-the 'BTK' serial killer who had apparently been a respectable citizen,a 'good' husband and father and a pillar of the community who had for years held down a reasonably good job, illustrates how long periods of silence and apparently 'good behaviour' can last between serial killing.
There are examples in Broadmoor today of serial killers who have changed both MO and signature.
Chapman was a serial killer working in Whitechapel during the Autumn of terror.Murder was rare at this time in Whitechapel according to the statistics
Colin Roberts and Dave Gates and others acquired for us for the year 1888---and 1887 and 1889.There were a couple of domestic murders -a husband who had murdered his wife etc that kind of thing but known serial killers there were not.
And ofcourse nobody ever dug up the floorboards or back yards of his public houses or any of the barber shops he took out leases on.
So Chapman has never been properly ruled out.I agree with Philip Sugden.He is a suspect we need to take seriously.

I don't know whether he was Jack the Ripper but like Fido's David Cohen he can't simply be dismissed on the basis of quoting from what modern day profilers say.

[Natalie Severn]

I think they must have been fake guns because Godley only ever said he had one (American) revolver, which Godley then produced in court.

Best

Helena

Hi Helena,
But how on earth would Godley know? Godley simply arrested him when Chapman was nearly 40 years old.As far as we know neither Godley or any other police officer ever took up a floor board in the Crown or Monument pub or dug up a garden in any of the many pubs or places Chapman stayed in.Today this would have been done with a serial killer----as it was with Fred and Rose West and others who have eluded justice for a long period of time.
Serial killers are among the most slippery criminals of all.

Norma

[Malcolm X]

he had an american flag, a rifle, 2 revolvers and a sword in the famous photo,

i expect he brought this lot back from America and told his customers that he was an Indiana Jones style game hunter, you know, bullshitted like crazy to his customers.

no idea if these guns are fully working or decomissioned replicas, is Chapman a ``smooth poisoner`` only, no to me he appears a ``hands on`` violent bully, whose living in a fantasy world, a Walter Mitty type of person.

what is revealing is the way he stares at the photographer, he looks cold and totally evil, and if he's hiding something.

i had lost interest in this guy as a top suspect, but now he's beginning to bother me again, there is something so damned strange about him.

he's clever for sure, and my guess is that he controlled his physical violence as best as he could at home, ( but it still surfaced yes) but out on the street that's different, probably miles worst.

[HelenaWojtczak]

What about the photo of him standing in front of his guns at the bar of his pub?
Maybe that was faked up too by Abberline or Gosling or Neil.You never know

I think they must have been fake guns because Godley only ever said he had one (American) revolver, which Godley then produced in court.

Best

Helena

[HelenaWojtczak]

The only time I ever saw a reference to Chapman having pistols or guns was in the chapter regarding his arrest in Arthur Neil's memoirs of his work at Scotland Yard. He mentions it with reference to knowing about the guns before the arrest (a fact that made the police more careful dealing with arresting Chapman). Of course, Neil makes mistakes (at one point referring to Chapman as a Jew - I believe he was a Polish Catholic). Neil may have also been depending on earlier writings of the Chapman case to pad out his account of his involvement (he lists all the points tha make Chapman a suspect for the Ripper Case).

Oddly enough, now that it may turn out to be a fiction, I have frequently pointed out that Chapman's having guns that he was willing to use would suggest that to just consider him a typical "poisoning only" serial killer is incorrect. Now it looks like I may be incorrect here.

Jeff

Hi Jeff

I cannot find any way the police could have known he owned a gun on the day of his arrest. They'd only spoken to Dr Stoker at that point.

There is no evidence that Chapman ever used a gun on people, only rats.

You are right, he was Roman Catholic.

Helena

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Helena,

The only time I ever saw a reference to Chapman having pistols or guns was in the chapter regarding his arrest in Arthur Neil's memoirs of his work at Scotland Yard. He mentions it with reference to knowing about the guns before the arrest (a fact that made the police more careful dealing with arresting Chapman). Of course, Neil makes mistakes (at one point referring to Chapman as a Jew - I believe he was a Polish Catholic). Neil may have also been depending on earlier writings of the Chapman case to pad out his account of his involvement (he lists all the points tha make Chapman a suspect for the Ripper Case).

Oddly enough, now that it may turn out to be a fiction, I have frequently pointed out that Chapman's having guns that he was willing to use would suggest that to just consider him a typical "poisoning only" serial killer is incorrect. Now it looks like I may be incorrect here.

Jeff

What about the photo of him standing in front of his guns at the bar of his pub?
Maybe that was faked up too by Abberline or Gosling or Neil.You never know

[Mayerling]

As for the bottom being turned into a "barber shop", at least Chapman did not offer "fresh meat pies" to his pub clientelle.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Hi Helena,

The only time I ever saw a reference to Chapman having pistols or guns was in the chapter regarding his arrest in Arthur Neil's memoirs of his work at Scotland Yard. He mentions it with reference to knowing about the guns before the arrest (a fact that made the police more careful dealing with arresting Chapman). Of course, Neil makes mistakes (at one point referring to Chapman as a Jew - I believe he was a Polish Catholic). Neil may have also been depending on earlier writings of the Chapman case to pad out his account of his involvement (he lists all the points tha make Chapman a suspect for the Ripper Case).

Oddly enough, now that it may turn out to be a fiction, I have frequently pointed out that Chapman's having guns that he was willing to use would suggest that to just consider him a typical "poisoning only" serial killer is incorrect. Now it looks like I may be incorrect here.

Jeff

[Monty]

Thanks for sharing those Monty. What a gloomy horrid place. I really cannot imagine what gave anyone the idea to open a barbershop in a basement of a pub, can you?

What's all the "walk alone" stuff, Monty?

They are lyrics from a Green Day song Helena. Always reminds me of those who truly matter in this case....the victims.

I do not see what more you can do either. Admin is on leave however Im sure they will pick it up when they can.

Monty

[HelenaWojtczak]

Announcement

I have been informed that my first posting isn't strictly within the rules as it is a book in copyright. I had no idea I was breaching a rule but now someone has PM'ed and told me obviously I need to correct my error.

I removed the offending snippet from photo-bucket, but it is still displaying on here and I don't know why and I don't know what to do to remove it as I cannot "edit" that first post. I have reported myself to the admin via the report post button on the post, I don't know what more I can do.

Helena

[HelenaWojtczak]

Thanks for sharing those Monty. What a gloomy horrid place. I really cannot imagine what gave anyone the idea to open a barbershop in a basement of a pub, can you?

What's all the "walk alone" stuff, Monty?

[Monty]

Chapmans Barbers Shop. The White Hart 2010.

Monty

[HelenaWojtczak]

Mark sent me this link to a page from 2003 where Gosling herself claims that she did not embellish the articles she found in the Police Review and her local paper. She did not explain why her version is different, however.I have the local Southwark cuttings downstairs and will look at them in the morning.

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4924/6026.html

[HelenaWojtczak]

Metropolitan Police administrative officer Debra Gosling, based at Blackfriars, Southwark, researched and wrote a double page article on Inspector Godley's career and another on George Chapman for the Southwark News of 24th April 2003.

She did not get this story from the cutting in my first posting, that is from the Poison Murders of Jack the Ripper published five years later in 2008.

Note that in HER version, both guns are discharged. If both Gosling and Gordon are quoting from the same source, where did she get the information from that he actually fired shots?

Her piece was supposed to be a serious piece of historical research, by the way, and it cited her police employment to make her seem like a diligent, trustworthy, in-the-know author.

(Apologies for not putting the source of the first cutting! I did put it on Photobucket where the image is uploaded, thinking you could all see the reference. I am clearly still a novice at uploading images for his board.)

[HelenaWojtczak]

I don't think Gordon necessarily knows who wrote the article with comments credited to Godley.

But he must know where it comes from, he must have seen something (book, mag, paper) in order to have sat and copy-typed it. Occasonally one gets a cutting or scan which has no source. If it were me I'd put a footnote saying, the source of this article has been lost.

Mark Oldridge has written to me and he thinks the opposite of you -- that it's one article not two.

So we are all pretty confused

Best wishes

Helena