Question for Dan Norder, Wolf Vanderlinden, Stewart P. Evans

[HelenaWojtczak]

Just out of curiosity, but do we know enough about Bietrykowski to criticize his abilities as a translator? One would expect that with a name like Bietrykowski and the fact that he was able to command payment for his services would seem to suggest that he was likely a Polish speaker himself. Certainly he claimed under oath that he was a Polish speaker, is there anything else known about him?

I believe he was a native Polish speaker Magpie, but he was translating Russian into English and of the three, English would have been his weakest language. There is no easy English equivalent to the word felczer (I do not know the Russian spelling), so he plumped for 'surgeon'. Little did he know that it was going to cause such controversy 109 years later.

I did not find anything about him. He was not in 1901/1911 census. The spelling of his name is up for debate.

Now, tell me, where is your evidence that he was paid?

Helena

[Malcolm X]

Hello Ben.

" . . . the whole point is that Phillips believed that Chapman and Eddowes were killed by different men. He didn't detect any skill from the Eddowes murder, and his views were echoed in that respect by Drs. Sequeira and Saunders."

Yes, and this is my point of departure. In fact, it's become a bloody obsession with me.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Cheers.
LC

yes i agree.....OBSESSION.

I only have one with regards to JTR and that is the night of Kelly's murder, i've seen her and the killer many times in dreams !

[Phil H]

Chapman definitely knew where the Kidneys were

That'd be Michael's mum and dad, I suppose?

Phil

[Malcolm X]

Kelly is an indoor version of the Eddowes murder, where by the killer has loads of time to do as he pleases, i'm not sure about medical knowledge and to be honest it doesn't really matter does it.

it doesn't really matter what knowledge Chapman had either, but he definitely would have had knowledge of where the organs where, even if only a surgeon's assistant, or a junior nurse etc etc.

he would've seen this in medical books, pictures on the walls....plus knowledge of this would have been part of his training/ questions in exams etc, i would have said that this is fairly obvious, plus finally, he definitely knew about poisoning and the effects that it had on the human body, the quantaties to use to escape detection etc.

i would conclude therefore, that Chapman definitely knew where the Kidneys were, even in pitch blackness!

Chapman is a very strong suspect, but tends to shake like a jelly when you investigate GH/KELLY; in great detail, like BEN and i did years ago

[lynn cates]

my obsession

Hello Ben.

" . . . the whole point is that Phillips believed that Chapman and Eddowes were killed by different men. He didn't detect any skill from the Eddowes murder, and his views were echoed in that respect by Drs. Sequeira and Saunders."

Yes, and this is my point of departure. In fact, it's become a bloody obsession with me.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Cheers.
LC

[Ben]

For example you need to list the doctors with quotes, their experience as police surgeons and seniority as police surgeons.Several were newly qualified for example.

I've done so a great many times before, Norma, and usually during the course of discussions with you on this subject. I'll try to dig up one of these if necessary. I'm not sure quite why you draw specific attention to the experience of Brown and Phillips as "police surgeons/crime doctors" and not Bond's. There is no indication that Bond had seen any fewer murders and stabbings than the other two, and he was second to none of them in terms of overall experience.

So their view is significant and both considered the man was skilled with the knife.

You say "the man", but the whole point is that Phillips believed that Chapman and Eddowes were killed by different men. He didn't detect any skill from the Eddowes murder, and his views were echoed in that respect by Drs. Sequeira and Saunders. It shouldn't be surprising that the killer had experience "with the knife" if he had been using on previous victims.

P.S. Magpie: good point regarding the distinction between feldshers and conventional doctors on the "speed" issue.

All the best,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
It means nothing to state such a view unless you quote chapter and verse over this.For example you need to list the doctors with quotes, their experience as police surgeons and seniority as police surgeons.Several were newly qualified for example.
Dr Brown and Dr Phillips had years of experience behind them as police surgeons/crime doctors and must have seen a great number of stabbings if not murders.So their view is significant and both considered the man was skilled with the knife.
Dr Bond was very much a newcomer on November 9th and did not see the other four murder victims 'in the flesh' and no amount of 'notes' would have made up for that-in my opinion,but you differ and thats fine.
Best,
Norma

[Ben]

There was no 'preponderance of medical opinion'!

Yes there is, Norma.

The notion that the killer had little to no anatomical knowledge enjoyed far more support from the contemporary doctors. Dr. Bond based his opinion on the notes made by his colleagues, which was more than sufficient to make an expert judgement. Unless these other doctors omitted some detail for some negligent reason, their reports were just as good as an on-the-spot examination. There is no evidence that Bond was any more errant in his estimation of the death times, overall, that his colleagues were (including Phillips).

All the best,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

I'm really surprised that anyone still thinks that medical knowledge on the part of the killer was "necessary". The preponderance of professional opinion was very much to the effect that the killer had little to no knowledge. Dr. Thomas Bond, who examined Kelly's body, as well as the autopsy notes for all the victims, stated that the crimes evinced no anatomical knowledge whatsoever.

The preponderance of professional opinion? There was no 'preponderance of medical opinion'!
Dr Bond was called in very late in the day [9th November 1888]by Robert Anderson to examine the butchered corpse of Mary Kelly.He concluded the man didn't even have the skill of a butcher! He didn't need to be a rocket scientist to conclude that now did he?
Dr Bond saw only Mary Kelly's grotesquely butchered remains.He never saw one other victim of the Ripper ,either 'in situ' or at the mortuary. He was way out on time of death in almost every case ,understandably since he wasn't around at the time but still professionally unusual to have 'had a guess' and got it wrong.

As for the others medical opinion was divided.As it is today.We have had medical men on here such as Nick Warren,FRCS,[ Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons] a practising surgeon and the publisher of Ripperana. Nick Warren believed the Ripper had some medical knowledge .As a qualified surgeon his opinion is valuable .
I am undecided whether the Ripper did or did not have surgical skills btw.

[Natalie Severn]

Ov Vey don't get me started on this one. As a Taoist of some 25 years I get a bug up my butt when people "correct" my spelling to "Dao" when for the last 150 years it's been understood that although spelled with a "T", it's pronounced with a soft "D". The point being that in China, they don't have "T" OR "D".

nor,if speaking Cantonese as their mother tongue for example, are they able to pronounce our 'r'--it is physically impossible.

Good point Jonathan.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Norma

Yes it does.

It is fact that Pietrykowski mistranslated people's names AND mistranslated the words "senior nurse" as "senior surgeon".

Therefore, everything he translated is suspect. Most especially, anything with the word surgeon/surgery/surgical in it.

I do appreciate this comes as a blow to you Norma but The Truth Will Out once you get Polish speakers like myself and Adamkle on the case.

Best,
Helena

no insults intended, but Helena you keep trashing your suspect and the things that were reportedly said about him, you're actually weakening him as a Ripper candidate.

i'm begining to wonder if you have a hidden agenda for doing this, it appears to me that you're writing this book to boost your ego more than anything else.

take care because you need strong proof to back up your statements, because i for one believe what was said about him.....especially in court and most of this is very well documented already.

[Magpie]

It also occurs to me that some countries, it seems, have a preferred transliteration scheme for other languages.

I'm thinking in particular of the Chinese, where in my youth the capital of China was Peking, before becoming Beijing. Does or did Polish have a similar approach? Was the situation any different before WW2 or before Poland gained independence after WW1 (could there have been Russian or German influences then)?

Certainly all I learned about China in a course I did at university (political not linguistic) was rendered of no account when all the familiar places and people changed their names (Mao Tse-tung became Mao Se-dong or similar).

Phil

Ov Vey don't get me started on this one. As a Taoist of some 25 years I get a bug up my butt when people "correct" my spelling to "Dao" when for the last 150 years it's been understood that although spelled with a "T", it's pronounced with a soft "D". The point being that in China, they don't have "T" OR "D".

[Phil H]

It also occurs to me that some countries, it seems, have a preferred transliteration scheme for other languages.

I'm thinking in particular of the Chinese, where in my youth the capital of China was Peking, before becoming Beijing. Does or did Polish have a similar approach? Was the situation any different before WW2 or before Poland gained independence after WW1 (could there have been Russian or German influences then)?

Certainly all I learned about China in a course I did at university (political not linguistic) was rendered of no account when all the familiar places and people changed their names (Mao Tse-tung became Mao Se-dong or similar).

Phil

[Magpie]

.

But at various times transliteration of names from foreign tongues into English has followed connventions which can change over time.

Thus for generations, the great Roman Lawyer and orator, Marcus Tullius Cicero was "Tully" to the English - a usage now archaic and dispensed with, but encountered in older books. Similarly, Marcus Antonius, the triumvir, is conventionally Mark Antony, and his contemporary and conquerer Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus, is Octavian (a name he never used!).

Don't forget that westerners have been calling Gojiira "Godzilla" for years...


Also there's the issue of Anglicization of foreign names. It's not uncommon for foreigners to adopt "English" versions of their names. Jozef becomes Joe, Juan becomes John, Antonio becomes Tony etc. etc. Hugo is very popular among Chinese males, for some reason.

[Magpie]

Just out of curiosity, but do we know enough about Bietrykowski to criticize his abilities as a translator? One would expect that with a name like Bietrykowski and the fact that he was able to command payment for his services would seem to suggest that he was likely a Polish speaker himself.

Certainly he claimed under oath that he was a Polish speaker, is there anything else known about him?