Question for Dan Norder, Wolf Vanderlinden, Stewart P. Evans

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Helena/All,
I know I sent you most of these in the trial attachment a while ago but are they the ones you dispute the translation of? They seem so official!
Anyway can you point to the ones wrongly translated so we all know what is in error?
Many Thanks
Norma


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" This is given to Severin Klosowski, surgery pupil, to the effect that from October 1, 1885, till January 1, 1886, he received instructions in practical surgery at the Hospital of Praga, Warsaw, and his general conduct was good.— (Signed) Krynick, Senior Surgeon.

" In accordance with the application of Severin Klosowski, and in consequence of inquiries ordered to be made, the present certificate is issued from the office of the Chief of Police of Warsaw to the effect that the applicant while residing in Warsaw was not observed by the police to be concerned in any improper conduct whatsoever. The present certificate is given to Mr. Klosowski under the proper signature and Government seal for the purpose of submitting the same to the Imperial University of Warsaw. Stamp duties have been collected.—Warsaw, April 29, 1886. Kasievitz, Deputy Chief of the Department. (Seal) A. Darenskov, Manager.


" Warsaw, November 15, 1886.—This is to certify that Severin Klosowski has been employed by me as surgeon assistant from January 20, 1886, up to the present time, and during the whole of that period he performed his surgical functions with a full knowledge of the subject, and his conduct was good. To this fact I testify with my own signature, and affix my stamp.—(Signed) D. Moshkovski."


" Ministry of Interior, Medical Administration of Warsaw, December 5, 1886.—In consequence of the application pre sen ted by Severin Klosowski, surgical pupil, the Medical
222
Translations of Documents/ &c.


Administration hereby testify to the effect that they do not see any reason to oppose his receiving the degree of a Junior Surgeon. The required stamp duties have been paid.— (Signed) Dr. M. Oreszaief, Collegiate Councillor and Inspector. A. Pominski, Secretary."


Cheers
Norma

Thanks Helena.That is most helpful.But does this explain the reference to his later work [1886] and to the curious wording about his 'degree as a surgeon' from Warsaw medical college?
Btw---its not a question of 'wanting him to be Jack the Ripper'-a better contender has always been David Cohen IMHO---who Martin Fido brought to our attention some years ago--its really just a question of having sufficient information about Chapman's dual identity/ predilections for serial killing /over a period of 15 years or so.

[HelenaWojtczak]

But does this explain the reference to his later work [1886] and to the curious wording about his 'degree as a surgeon' from Warsaw medical college?

Hi Norma

Yes it does.

It is fact that Pietrykowski mistranslated people's names AND mistranslated the words "senior nurse" as "senior surgeon".

Therefore, everything he translated is suspect. Most especially, anything with the word surgeon/surgery/surgical in it.

I do appreciate this comes as a blow to you Norma but The Truth Will Out once you get Polish speakers like myself and Adamkle on the case.

Best,
Helena

[HelenaWojtczak]

PS

As Jack the Ripper did not need to be a surgeon, all thisit actually has no bearing whatsoever on Klosowski being the Ripper or not.

Best,

Helena

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma

Yes it does.

It is fact that Pietrykowski mistranslated people's names AND mistranslated the words "senior nurse" as "senior surgeon".

Therefore, everything he translated is suspect. Most especially, anything with the word surgeon/surgery/surgical in it.

I do appreciate this comes as a blow to you Norma but The Truth Will Out once you get Polish speakers like myself and Adamkle on the case.

Best,
Helena

Well I certainly don't take your word for it---sorry. This man was paid as a translator.All you have done is question Rapoport"s skills ----not the entire Prago Hospital records.
We need someone who is a qualified translator of medical terms in the context of the language and medical terminology of the 19th century Polish government documents to translate for us here .
Norma

[HelenaWojtczak]

Well I certainly don't take your word for it---sorry. This man was paid as a translator.All you have done is question Rapoport"s skills ----not the entire Prago Hospital records.

Norma

"We need someone who is a qualified translator of medical terms in the context of the language and medical terminology of the 19th century Polish government documents to translate for us here ."

How is that going to help when we don't have the original documents?

Why do you still not understand me Norma. I am not questioning Rapoport's skills. I am quite sure he was the best, the top of his profession! If I tell you that my practice nurse isn't a surgeon, am I questioning her skills? No, they are different jobs.

I thought I had made myself as plain as I possibly could in my last message, why do you still not understand what I am saying?

I will try again: here are the facts, not my opinion, the FACTS:

1. Rapoport was a "starszy felczer". That was his profession. He is listed as such in Polish directories, along with hundreds of other "starszy felczers". This is a fact, not my opinion, not running him down. That is exactly what he was.

2. "starszy" means senior and "felczer" mean nurse-practioner.

3. Klosowski himself told many people, some of whom ended up as witnesses at his trials, that he was a felczer. He told the ex-felczer Levisohn in his mother tongue that he was a felczer.

4. It's no wonder he was a felczer, because the man he was apprenticed to was a "starszy" (i.e. senior) felczer. If you are apprenticed to a blacksmith, you don't emerge as a carpenter.

So, you won't take my word for it (nor Adam's) - the two Polish speakers on here. Well, you are absolutely free and qualified to do your own research and prove that a felczer is a surgeon. Here is something to start you off:

Ramer, Samuel C. (1976). Who Was the Russian Feldsher? Bulletin of the History of Medicine 50:213–225. Ramer, Samuel C. (1996).

Professionalism and Politics: The Russian Feldsher Movement, 1891–1918. In Balzer, H (ed). Russia’s Missing Middle Class: The Professions in Russian History, New York.

Best regards

Helena

[Natalie Severn]

This is absurd.Being a Polish speaker does not qualify you in this matter Helena to trash everything the original translator interpreted.The man was employed by the state as a translator of Polish medical documents.
I am not qualified -even as a fluent English speaker- to translate legal jargon or a doctors medical terminology.There are sub-divisions of language that comprise the terminology of subject specialisms such as medicine,mathematics,law, science in every language.Such sub categories often use intentionally abstruse linguistic terms -and such terminology exists in order to provide greater clarity and greater precision of communication between users of that linguistic category.
Just because you and your compatriot are Polish speakers doesn't mean that you can decide to call into question everything the man translated.
The original translator was employed by the state to translate the Klosowski documents and on the basis of an error he made--- apparently---- over the exact translated definition of Ropoports medical title you have decided everything he translated was wrong.
I did not say that I did not accept your discovery that Ropoport was a 'glorified nurse' of some kind.What I question is that you then make a giant leap and suggest the entirety of his work was wrong--a very sweeping statement if I may say so.

[HelenaWojtczak]

This is absurd.Being a Polish speaker does not qualify you in this matter Helena

I am sorry that my uncovering of the truth has upset you so much, but facts are facts and for me to overlook Pietrykowski's wrong translations, to suppress the truth just because it is inconvenient for others to revise their previous beliefs would be a betrayal of everything I learned from my university tutors.

Why are you so furious that diligent research has uncovered new information? As a fellow author you should welcome correct information with open arms and admire my diligence and care in rooting out the truth.

Unlike most others who have written about Chapman, I have not just repeated parrot-fashion previous incorrect information about him. I have gone to enormous lengths to ferret out the truth, the facts; to check everything that it is in my power to check. This, I think, should be applauded and welcomed, not trashed.

If anything is "absurd" it is stating that being a Polish speaker counts for nothing when dealing accurately with Polish names, Polish job titles and Polish places.

"Just because you and your compatriot are Polish speakers doesn't mean that you can decide to call into question everything the man translated."

Yes, it does, actually. Here are some of his other known errors:

Incorrect name spellings: Colimowski, Zyanski, Merkish, Olstetski; Moshkovski; Godlevski; Kalish; Olshanski; Oreszaief; Cobalski. Severin is an incorrect spelling of Seweryn. Antonio is an incorrect spelling of Anton. Brodnitski is an incorrect spelling of Brodinski. Zyanski is not a Polish surname. ‘Ludwig Zyanski’ could be Ludwik Żywański. ‘Ludwika Zywanski’ could be his wife, mother or sister, though she should correctly be Żywańska, but it could also be one person not two.

Nagornak should be Nagórna; Krasseminsk should be Krasienin; Tyshenitsa and Tyminitsa should be Tymienica; Khotche and Nodga should be Chotcza; and Ilsetsk and Ilshetsk should be Ilza. Zvolen is an incorrect spelling of Zwoleń. ‘Tyshenitsa Nova Nil’ is incorrect; there is a town called Tymienica Nowa, but what the ‘Nil’ is supposed to be is a mystery.

And the biggest error, one which has had enormous repercussions over the years. ‘Senior surgeon’ is a mistranslation of ‘starszy felczer’, which means senior nurse-practitioner. And the likelihood is that every occurrence of the word felczer was mistranslated as "surgeon".

I don't know why you are panicking so much Norma, Jack the Ripper didn't need surgical training, so it doesn't stop him being a suspect.


Helena

[Natalie Severn]

What utter nonsense.
I am not upset about anyone uncovering 'the truth'.You have entirely missed the point of what I was staying.I too have studied at University btw -and with professors of Linguistics at M.Phil level actually.
You make this flying leap about 'mistakes' you assume were made by the translator regarding a number of Polish names;how do you know they were not mistakes made by typists unfamiliar with the sound syllables within the words they were copying out ??? Unfamiliar with the consonant clusters at the end of those names, ie people familiar with the English sound and spelling system rather than the Polish one---people who were simply employed as typists at the court?
I accept that the translator may have made a mistake about the exact title of Rapoport's work---such a job description had no exact parallel here so its understandable that there was some confusion---[and as Mike has just tried to explain to you ,this type of work you refer to apparently often involved field surgery anyway] .But you decide to chuck out the baby with the bath water-trash everything this man translated.This man read the documents---neither you nor anyone else here have ever had that privilege.
I dislike sweeping statements.
You were saying that the ripper didn't need surgical skills.Quite true.He could have learnt how to subdue his victims,slit throats etc in the army for example or how to rip them open etc because he had learnt how to do so with animals--- but opinion was then and now is divided over whether or not he had ever had such experience .He could certainly work with great speed in the dark and with the knife thats for sure.

[HelenaWojtczak]

What utter nonsense.

You make this flying leap about 'mistakes' you assume were made by the translator regarding a number of Polish names;how do you know they were not mistakes made by typists

I accept that the translator may have made a mistake about the exact title of Rapoport's work---such a job description had no exact parallel here so its understandable that there was some confusion---[and as Mike has just tried to explain to you ,this type of work you refer to apparently often involved field surgery anyway] .

But you decide to chuck out the baby with the bath water-trash everything this man translated.

Can you never make a point without resorting to insults?

I happen to agree with you. Here is an extract from my book:

The Russian-language documents found at The Crown were (poorly) translated by Pietrykowski, then written or typed by a clerk or typist, then supplied to Hargrave Adam’s publisher, where they were retyped, and sent to the printer to be retyped again during the typesetting process. The likelihood of introducing errors during these 'Chinese-whisper' style events is, of course, enormous.


However, all the bad typists in the world could not be responsible for his MISTRANSLATION, for that is exactly what is was, of the words starszy felczer.

"But you decide to chuck out the baby with the bath water-trash everything this man translated."

Norma you really must stop these erroneous accusations!

I did not trash everything he translated. Why do you have to keep making these over-the-top wild comments?

I said every time he uses the word SURGEON we have to be suspicious because we KNOW for a FACT that he was wrong when he translated starszy felczer as senior surgeon.

If he translated every instance of FELCZER as SURGEON.... well, you re-read the list of documents and you will see it makes quite an impact.

So, contrary to your accusation, I am not trashing everything he translated, I am challenging ONE WORD.

I really have nothing more to say on this subject. I've told you what I have found out, and this is the thanks I get.

Why should I share anything with you in the future just to get sneered at and insulted?

I've worked damned hard on this book, and all you do is be nasty to me. You said you would "help" me, but since then, you have done nothing but put me down.

My previous books have been highly respected, well-reviewed, and greeted with praise.

I don't expect this sort of treatment and certainly don't deserve it.

I now understand why people leave these boards.

Helena

[Magpie]

\I did not trash everything he translated. Why do you have to keep making these over-the-top wild comments?

\

With respect, but that's pretty much exactly what you implied when you said:

Therefore, everything he translated is suspect. Most especially, anything with the word surgeon/surgery/surgical in it.

[Ben]

I'm really surprised that anyone still thinks that medical knowledge on the part of the killer was "necessary". The preponderance of professional opinion was very much to the effect that the killer had little to no knowledge. Dr. Thomas Bond, who examined Kelly's body, as well as the autopsy notes for all the victims, stated that the crimes evinced no anatomical knowledge whatsoever. Dr. Brown was outnumbered three-to-one is his opinion that Eddowes' killer had any real knowledge beyond skill with a knife (which is something quite different), and the only instance of a doctor attributing surgical skill to the killer was Dr. Phillips in the case of Annie Chapman, and he thought Eddowes was killed by a different hand! The killer did not need the army to teach him how to subdue a victim and slit her throat, any more than other serial killers did. They simply honed their "skills" through experience. As for the speed of the crime, no medical professional is taught to remove organs at speed and in darkness, so this factor should not be considered a "pro" for the minority-endorsed "medical knowledge" theory.

[Magpie]

"As for the speed of the crime, no medical professional is taught to remove organs at speed and in darkness..."

Hi Ben.

At the risk of opening the "surgical skill debate" (which I hold no position in), I think it's reasonable to suggest that a feldsher (particularly one with military experience) might have had more emphasis on speed than precision in their training (removing shrapnel and amputation limbs, yes: filching organs, probably not) than your average surgeon. Especially in an era before effective anaesthetics and anti-septic standards.

Not that it really matters in this instance, as the current argument is more about linguistics rather than surgical skill.

[Phil H]

This may be an utterly niave intervention, and I am utterly ignorant of the Polish language.

But at various times transliteration of names from foreign tongues into English has followed connventions which can change over time.

Thus for generations, the great Roman Lawyer and orator, Marcus Tullius Cicero was "Tully" to the English - a usage now archaic and dispensed with, but encountered in older books. Similarly, Marcus Antonius, the triumvir, is conventionally Mark Antony, and his contemporary and conquerer Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus, is Octavian (a name he never used!).

It just strikes me that some of the names you say were wrong, might simply be following the period convention:

Severin rather than Seweryn for instance

I recognise that what I am suggesting may be nonsense, since certainly I'd expect Anton rather than Antonio for a Polish name.

On the other hand, Brodnitski for Brodinski; Zyanski for Żywański could simply be misreading of handwritten notes, I guess.

I take your general point though.

Phil

[Magpie]

Just out of curiosity, but do we know enough about Bietrykowski to criticize his abilities as a translator? One would expect that with a name like Bietrykowski and the fact that he was able to command payment for his services would seem to suggest that he was likely a Polish speaker himself.

Certainly he claimed under oath that he was a Polish speaker, is there anything else known about him?

[Magpie]

.

But at various times transliteration of names from foreign tongues into English has followed connventions which can change over time.

Thus for generations, the great Roman Lawyer and orator, Marcus Tullius Cicero was "Tully" to the English - a usage now archaic and dispensed with, but encountered in older books. Similarly, Marcus Antonius, the triumvir, is conventionally Mark Antony, and his contemporary and conquerer Gaius Julius Caesar Octavianus, is Octavian (a name he never used!).

Don't forget that westerners have been calling Gojiira "Godzilla" for years...


Also there's the issue of Anglicization of foreign names. It's not uncommon for foreigners to adopt "English" versions of their names. Jozef becomes Joe, Juan becomes John, Antonio becomes Tony etc. etc. Hugo is very popular among Chinese males, for some reason.