Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?.

[Natalie Severn]

I knew some of the most horrific goings on of WW2 were in Swolen, Errata ,but the information on Chapman from Swolen was found at the time of his arrest in 1902.
All,
Here are some snippets from his trial concerning his records [also a snippet from the chemist's testimony in Hastings]

:Joseph Betrikowski,[ trial translator]
examined—

I live at 30 New Street, Kennington Park Road. I know the Polish language. I have made a correct translation of the documents produced, and also of the little book, which is a book containing 500 household prescriptions. On the front page there appears the name cl S. Klosowski." One of the papers, dated 29th October, 1882, certifies that on 15th December, 1865, Antonio Klosowski, a carpenter, and a native of the village of Nagorna, with two witnesses, arrived at Kolo, and stated that Emilie, the wife of Klosowski, had given birth to a child on the previous morning, whose name was Severin. The next paper is dated 19th December, 1880, and is a certificate to the effect that Severin Klosowski, son of Antonio, attended the Krasseninsk School from October, 1873, till June, 1878, and completed the full term of his studies, and that his conduct was good. The third paper is a certificate from the magistrate of the county of Zvolen to the effect that Severin Klosowski, a resident of the village of Zvolen, was a well-behaved man, and had never been found guilty of any crime,


Klosowski had been employed for four and a half years in the village of Tymenitsa as a surgery pupil, and had given skilful assistance to patients. There is also a certificate dated 2nd January, 1886, to the effect that Severin Klosowski, from 1st October, 1885, to 1st January, 1886, had received instruction in practical surgery at the hospital at Praga, and that his general conduct was good. (There were other certificates to the effect that Severin Klosowski had been employed as a surgeon-assistant, that he had fulfilled his duties with zeal, that he had been of good behaviour, and that he had performed his surgical functions with a full knowledge of the subject."*

...and this from the chemist in Hastings:[I doubt Chapman had much difficulty either finding his way about Whitechapel or learning English in 1888.He was clearly no fool].

You knew the accused fairly well?—Yes; I had had several transactions with him.
How much does an ounce of tartar-emetic cost ?—Twopence. I used to buy about a pound at a time.
Can you recollect if he bought anything else on the same day ?—No
.
By a Juryman—Did you find him a very intellectual man to converse with?—Yes.
And are you positive that he is the man?—Yes.

There is really some quite interesting information contained in the trial.
Norma

[Errata]

I knew some of the most horrific goings on of WW2 were in Swolen, Errata ,but the information on Chapman from Swolen was found at the time of his arrest in 1902.

Well, my problems are mainly with his apprenticeship, and not to the basic facts of his life. Of course a birth record would exist, and school records would exist. So I guess my question is, how do we know he lived with the Rappaports? Because that's a very strange thing to wrap my head around.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Errata/All,
I thought it might be helpful here to have sight of these details which are taken from the trial etc


GEORGE CHAPMAN
(Severin Klosowski).
INTRODUCTION.
I. Severin Antoniovich Klosowski
On the 14th of december, 1865, in Nargornak, a village in the district of Kolo, Poland, Emilie, wife of a carpenter, Antonio Klosowski, gave birth to a male child. The boy was christened Severin. In due course he went to a primary school. His parents intended him for a medical career, and at the age of fifteen they apprenticed him to a surgeon named Moshko Rappaport, in the town of Zvolen. He remained with Rappaport for five or six years, and during that time he obtained numerous certificates to the effect that he gave every satisfaction, studied diligently, and exhibited general aptitude. on the expiry of his apprenticeship he tried to obtain the degree of a junior surgeon, but whether or not he was successful in this effort 'at not known. There is no evidence to indicate that the degree was ever granted, although Klosowski certainly applied for it. in Poland he does not seem ever to have occupied more than the ordinary position of hospital assistant or " barber-surgeon.7' however, whilst occupying this position in different parts of the country, he was again successful in collecting many documents of a nattering nature.* of these die most interesting is one purporting to come from the magistrate of a district in which he had lived, and testifying that he was well-behaved;, and " had never been found guilty of any crime whatever." it is not known what occasion called forth this guarantee of good behaviour, but if the testimonial were true, Klosowski was yet to remedy this omission in most remarkable fashion.
as regards his occupation of "barber-surgeon” which, by the way, is technically known in Poland as Feldscher, it may be noted that his professional knowledge included that of a hairdresser. The two professions—if hairdressing may...........


-----------


APPENDIX III.
Translations of Documents, in Russian and Polish, found in Chapman's possession on the occasion of his arrest.
(1)
*' Extract from birth certificate, Civil Register, Roman Catholic denomination, issued from Parish Register of Kolo.
" On the 15th clay of December, 1865, at ten o'clock in the morning, there appeared Antonio Klosowski, 30 years of age, a carpenter by trade, native of the village of Nagornak, together with two witnesses, Ludwika Zywanski, aged 32, and Jacob Rozinski, aged 56, both of Nagornak, and employed there. They stated that Emilie, the wife of Antonio Klosowski, nee Ulatowski, aged 29, had given birth to a child the previous morning. The child was named Severin and that his parents are Polish subjects. The godfather of the child was Ludwig Zyanski and the godmother's name was Marianna Colimowski. That they were present at the birth and that they affixed their signatures hereto in testimony thereof."
(Then follow the signatures of the Clerical Registrar of Kolo, the Chief of the Parochial Registry of Kolo, and a magistrate of Kolo.)
(2)
" This is given by the teacher of the Krasseminsk rural public primary school, consisting of one Standard, to the effect that Severin Klosowski, son of Antonio, attended the Krasseminsk School from October 17-29, 1873, till June 6-13, 1880, and completed the full term of studies of the first department, and that his conduct throughout his attendance at the school was very good.—In witness thereof I affix my own signature, Merkish, teacher, village of Krassenin, December 7-19, 1880."
(The authenticity of the signature of Merkish is attested by two witnesses.)
219
George Chapman.
(3)
ic Receipt for one rouble, paid by Rappaport to the Treasury of the Society of Surgeons of the town of Radom on behalf of the surgical apprentice, Severin Klosowski.
" Radom, October 23-November 5, 1882.—N. Brodnitski, Senior Surgeon.''
(±)
" The magistrate of the County of Zvolen hereby certifies that Severin Klosowski, resident of the village Zvolen, is a well-behaved man, and was never found guilty of any crime whatever. To which effect he bears testimony by his own signature and official seal.—Dushevitch, Magistrate of the County, Village Zvolen, November 16, 1882."
(5)
" Certificate issued to the surgical apprentice, Severin Antonio Klosowski, to the effect that he, Severin Klosowski, was in my surgery for the purpose of studying surgery from December 1, 1880, till June 1, 1885, and during the whole of the time he, Severin Klosowski, discharged accurately ail his duties. He was diligent, of exemplary conduct, and studied with zeal the science of surgery.—In testimony thereof I affix my signature, Moshko Rappaport, Senior Surgeon and proprietor of the surgery in the village Zvolen, June 1, 1885."
(6)
" Certificate issued to Severin Klosowski, resident in the village of Tyminitsa, county of Nodga, district of Iltetsk, Government of Radom, to the effect that he was employed for a period of four-and-a-half years by the local surgeon, Moshko Rappaport, in the capacity of a practising surgery pupil, and under the doctor's instructions rendered very skilful assistance to patients—i.e., in cupping by means of glasses, leeches, and other assistance comprised in the science of surgery. To ail the above I am able to testify as an eye-witness.—(Signed) 0. P." Olstbtski, medical practitioner in village of Zvolen, October 10-22, 1885."
(?)
"October 23-November 4, 1885.—The Radom Surgical Society, of the town of Radom, hereby certifies that the surgical pupil, Severin Klosowski, was entered at the registry of surgical pupils by the Senior Surgeon, Moshko Rappaport, in the town of Radom, November 22-December 3, 1882. Subject No. 8, and in accordance with Article 17, letter b, of the Surgical Society. One rouble in silver
220
Translations of Documents, &c.
was paid by him into the Treasury of the said Society.— In witness whereof, Brodinski, the Chief of the Society, testifies by affixing his signature and the seal of the Surgical Society."
(8)
" This is given to Severin Klosowski, surgery pupil, to the effect that from October 1, 1885, till January 1, 1886, he received instructions in practical surgery at the Hospital of Praga, Warsaw,........

-------------------------------------------------

----------- his parents apprenticed me for the purpose of studying surgery to Moshko Rappaport, senior surgeon of the town of Z vol en. Having served my term of apprenticeship till 1885, I came to Warsaw, and whilst employed by Mr. V. Oishanski I also attended a practical course of surgery at the Praga Hospital. Upon the termination of my hospital practice I entered the service of Mr. D.
221
George Chapman.
Moshkovski, by whom I am still employed. I present here with all my documents.—Yours faithfully, Severin Klosowski, Warsaw, November 15, 1886."
(The document bears the stamp value 15 kopecks.)
(12)
ct Passport, given on November 21, 1886, to Severin Antonovich Klosowski, residing in the Radom Government, district of Ilshetsk, county of Khotche, village of Tyshenifsa, Nova Nil to travel to the city of Warsaw from the above date till November 1-13, 1887, upon the expiration of which the said document shall bo returned to me. The civil and military authorities shall allow the bearer a free passage, and if necessary render him legal assistance. (liven in Khotche, November 24, 1886. Physical description. Age, 21; born in 1865; height, medium; hair, of a dark shade : eyes, blue; nose and mouth., medium ; chin and face, Iongish : birthmarks, none.
<c Passport within the limits and ihe Kingdom of Poland. Free.—(Signed) Mazur, Magistrate of the County of Khotche. (Seal) Godlevski, County Clerk."
(This was given to Klosowski on his recruiting in I^KG. ■
(13)
" Warsaw, December, 1886.—His Excellency, the Dean of the Medical Faculty of the Imperial University of Warsaw.
f< Petition from Severin Klosowski, surgical pupil, re siding at No. 16 Muranovskaja Street.
" I have the honour to request your Excellency to grant me permission to undergo the examination for the purpose of receiving the degree of Junior Surgeon. I enclose here with the required documents.—Yours faithfully, Skvkkin Klosowskt."
(14)
"Town of Praga, November 21 to December 6, I .SN6. I hereby certify that Severin Klosowski was employed by me in the capacity of an assistant surgeon from August 20, 1885, till February 1, 1886, and during the whole of the time he fulfilled the whole of his duties with zeal, and was of good behaviour. In witness whereof I have aflixed my own signature.—(Signed) 0. F. Olsuanski."
05)
" Ministry of Interior, Medical Administration of Warsaw, December 5, 1886.—In consequence of the application pre sen ted by Severin Klosowski, surgical pupil, the Medical
* See Appendix III

[Natalie Severn]

Errata,
It was customary here too to apprentice a 15 year old to an experienced and qualified surgeon.The poet, Keats, was apprenticed in exactly the same way to a surgeon in Edgeware,England.His carers had to pay for his food and lodgings which were in an extension to the surgeon's house [and situated at the bottom of his garden].Keats hated it and there are a number of letters from him stating he was treated like a servant by this surgeon!After five years he moved on to Guy's hospital for further training and experience on the wards.This was earlier in the C19th but it only stopped around 1875 in the UK.

[Errata]

Errata,
It was customary here too to apprentice a 15 year old to an experienced and qualified surgeon.The poet, Keats, was apprenticed in exactly the same way to a surgeon in Edgeware,England.His carers had to pay for his food and lodgings which were in an extension to the surgeon's house [and situated at the bottom of his garden].Keats hated it and there are a number of letters from him stating he was treated like a servant by this surgeon!After five years he moved on to Guy's hospital for further training and experience on the wards.This was earlier in the C19th but it only stopped around 1875 in the UK.

Oh I understand the apprenticeship. It's the living with part that is very odd in an "In this time and in this place" kinda way. This was the Pale of Settlement. For a Jewish family to live with a non-Jew was unthinkable. It was illegal, and punishments were severe. Not to mention that Jewish families in the Pale had absolutely no incentive to trust non-Jews, and would hardly risk "contaminating" their sacred holidays with the presence of a non-Jew. Because many non-Jews tried to do exactly that on numerous occasions. Shoving pig carcasses down chimneys, splashing blood on synagogues... my grandmother remembers sitting down to a shabbat meal when some boys from a nearby school starting tossing buckets of pig parts into the house through the open windows. Also the name Rappaport is almost universally tied to specific caste in Judaism called the Cohen (Kohein). They are the priest caste and have very strict rules about ritual cleanliness that the other castes don't have, which makes it even more unlikely that they would tolerate an outsider.

I can understand Chapman being apprenticed to a Jew (sort of). It would make sense if no Christian surgeons were available. It would not be without consequences, but presumably he would move, and conceal the source of his learning. But it is somewhat akin to a white boy being apprenticed to a black surgeon and living with his family in 1890s Alabama. Really nobody is doing anybody any favors in that situation. So it's surprising, and if it's true I have to wonder what Moshke Rappaport was getting out of it that was worth the risk.

[Natalie Severn]

Oh I understand the apprenticeship. It's the living with part that is very odd in an "In this time and in this place" kinda way. This was the Pale of Settlement. For a Jewish family to live with a non-Jew was unthinkable. It was illegal, and punishments were severe. Not to mention that Jewish families in the Pale had absolutely no incentive to trust non-Jews, and would hardly risk "contaminating" their sacred holidays with the presence of a non-Jew. Because many non-Jews tried to do exactly that on numerous occasions.

It may be of interest to you that Klosowski in his relationships was extremely unconventional.He lived in a threesome at one point,and when he was making a play for Mary Spink stood on the landing locked in deep embrace until the landlady objected- he dismissed her criticism of their behaviour as her being tied to outdated ideas.He behaved unconventionally with his lovers for those times throughout his life and always gave a response that indicated he made up his own rules about everything.
Maybe he impressed Rappaport as a kind of free thinker who held his Jewish neighbours in high regard. He was a consummate flatterer and charmer according to the relatives of his female victims.

[Errata]

Maybe he impressed Rappaport as a kind of free thinker who held his Jewish neighbours in high regard. He was a consummate flatterer and charmer according to the relatives of his female victims.

Well maybe, but his father arranged the apprenticeship and his family lived in a different town. I can't think there would have been a whole lot of opportunities for Klosowski to impress the man.

And I'm not saying its impossible. Just incomprehensible.

[HelenaWojtczak]

My guess would be that his main motivator was to get the 500 pound legacy,

My guess is that he killed his next victims because he had the taste of it, because he got fed up with them too and just because he could, thinking that he wouldn’t be caught as he was far too clever.

Hello Frank!

I've just been reading up about the £500 and by 1897 she'd handed it all over to him, that is what funded the businesses in Hastings and the POW pub lease purchases. I think he could have then just chucked her out and there would be no legal redress because she'd given him the money voluntarily and, as they were not married, she also had no claim on his assets.

But I think your second point (above) is correct. Killing her by an undetectable means would avoid any post-breakup arguments about her legacy.

[HelenaWojtczak]

On the 14th of december, 1865, in Nargornak, a village in the district of Kolo

Norma, I am concerned and curious about this misspelling of Nagórna. Is it really on his original Polish documents? That does seem strange. Rather like English people writing "Hastings" as "Hastingsk".

[HelenaWojtczak]

HI all

I am utterly intrigued by this discussion:

Errata states that Zwolen was "the Pale of Settlement. For a Jewish family to live with a non-Jew was unthinkable. It was illegal, and punishments were severe."

To which Norma counters: "Klosowski in his relationships was extremely unconventional... he made up his own rules about everything. Maybe he impressed Rappaport as a kind of free thinker who held his Jewish neighbours in high regard."

Firstly, a point - however unconventional Klosowski turned out to be in later life had no bearing on his apprenticeship with Rapaport when he was 15. In Poland in 1880, a 15 yr old boy did not run his own life (as youngsters do today). He was under the strict control of his parents (well, father), who made all decisions about his life, education, apprenticeship, etc. It would be Antonio and not Seweryn who chose Rapaport and liaised with him with regards to the boy's apprenticeship.

This still leaves me wondering (a) HOW Antonio knew of Rapaport and (b) WHY he chose to send his son 100m away when there must have been LOADS of surgeons etc in nearby towns that he could have been apprenticed to. And non-Jewish ones, to boot, avoiding the problems Errata cites.

Secondly, a question: does everyone agree with Errata that it was illegal for a non Jewish boy to live with a Jew as an apprentice?

Helena

[HelenaWojtczak]

(b) WHY he chose to send his son 100m away when there must have been LOADS of surgeons etc in nearby towns that he could have been apprenticed to.

Another DUH moment -- nobody on these forums seems to have mentioned the possibility that the Klosowski family moved away from Nagorna after he was born. Silly me to have taken that at face value :-(

How do we know the Klosowskis didn't also live in Zwolen?

[HelenaWojtczak]

I just found ANTONIO & STANISLAW KLOSOWSKI currently have a business at Posanie 11 37-450 Stalowa Wola, about 40m south of Zwolen. I've never heard of a Pole called Antonio till I read about Seweryn's father. It's a Spanish-Italian sounding name that maybe HIS parents to a shine to. Seems a stunning coincidence that there have been TWO Antonio Klosowskis, surely they must be gg-father and gg-son?

http://www.antonio-klosowski.pl/en/onas.html

[Chris]

(b) WHY he chose to send his son 100m away when there must have been LOADS of surgeons etc in nearby towns that he could have been apprenticed to.

Another DUH moment -- nobody on these forums seems to have mentioned the possibility that the Klosowski family moved away from Nagorna after he was born. Silly me to have taken that at face value :-(

How do we know the Klosowskis didn't also live in Zwolen?

If you're interested in researching the family background you may find it's worth looking at the online LDS Family History Catalogue:

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp

Many of the Polish civil registration records have been microfilmed, and the microfilms can be viewed at any of the LDS Family History Centres for a modest fee.

For some reason the search facility seems to work better if you put the place name in the "Keyword" field rather than in "Place search".

[HelenaWojtczak]

If you're interested in researching the family background you may find it's worth looking at the online LDS Family History Catalogue:

http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library/FHLC/frameset_fhlc.asp

Many of the Polish civil registration records have been microfilmed, and the microfilms can be viewed at any of the LDS Family History Centres for a modest fee.

For some reason the search facility seems to work better if you put the place name in the "Keyword" field rather than in "Place search".

Just been on there, none of my search names got any hits. But thanks for the link anyway.

[Chris]

Just been on there, none of my search names got any hits. But thanks for the link anyway.

There's a huge amount that the LDS have filmed that's not included in their searchable indexes of births, marriages and deaths. I think that will apply to most of the Polish records. I was really suggesting that you might find it useful to look at the films themselves.