Can George Chapmam reform himself to being a calculating poisoner seven years later?.

[Adam Went]

Just on Chapman's ability to speak English in 1888, it's difficult to say but I would suggest that he would have needed at least a very basic understanding of communicating in English in order to work as he did and therefore converse with his clients.

He wasn't a dumb man, he was somewhat educated, and it's plausible that he educated himself in English before he ever left Poland, or that in the year or so that he had already spent in London by the time of the Whitechapel murders, he had picked some of the language up.

Cheers,
Adam.

[HelenaWojtczak]

Just on Chapman's ability to speak English in 1888, it's difficult to say but I would suggest that he would have needed at least a very basic understanding of communicating in English in order to work as he did and therefore converse with his clients.

He wasn't a dumb man, he was somewhat educated, and it's plausible that he educated himself in English before he ever left Poland, or that in the year or so that he had already spent in London by the time of the Whitechapel murders, he had picked some of the language up.

Cheers,
Adam.

Yes, this bothers me as well. I have a theory that he spent a year or more in the USA 1887-88 where he picked up English with an American accent, which enabled him to (as he did) later claim to be American.

However, Norma cites a witness who knew him well (his brother in law) saying that when Seweryn arrived in England he spoke only Polish and some Yiddish, so I guess that sinks my theory.

[HelenaWojtczak]

I see where you guys are comming from, but the bottom line is that JtR and Chapman both got something out of killing women. The "method of gratification" could have changed over time, especially since the relationships were different.

plus we do not really know if Chapman poisened his wives for sadistic reasons, although that is a reasonable observation.

I just wanted to make the point that he didn't kill his wife. The women he killed were girlfriends, so he didn't even have the motive of killing to avoid the trouble and expense of a divorce. If he wanted these women out of his life, he only had to get up and walk away ... so I suggest the motive was probably sadism.

Reading the long, drawn out way his girlfriends died suggests that he enjoyed making them suffer. If he really HAD to kill them (rather than just deserting them) he could have chosen much faster and more painless methods of despatch.

[Natalie Severn]

Yes, this bothers me as well. I have a theory that he spent a year or more in the USA 1887-88 where he picked up English with an American accent, which enabled him to (as he did) later claim to be American.

However, Norma cites a witness who knew him well (his brother in law) saying that when Seweryn arrived in England he spoke only Polish and some Yiddish, so I guess that sinks my theory.

But there might be a problem here .Why would Severin converse in English with a fellow Pole like Wolff Levisohn?Surely he spoke Polish or as he says 'Yiddish' with him. So would Levisohn have heard him 'conversing' in English? Like you say he seems to have been a quick learner and he wouldn't be surely wanting to have lengthy conversations with a woman who was a bit the worse for drink where he needed a full command of the English language.You can't imagine him approaching Polly Nichols for example and starting a discussion about the writings of Charles Dickens .All he needed to know was a few common phrases---like ,"shall we go over there?" etc.........

[Ben]

The reason I consider it more likely that Klosowski couldn't speak in English in 1888 is that Wolf Levisshon, who caught up with him in Tottenham High Road in 1895, observed that he was speaking English "then". This suggests that he previously lacked this ability, and that he presumably cultivated it during his American travels. Prior to that time, Levisshon stated that he spoke a mixture of Polish and Yiddish. If he knew that he also spoke English at that time, it would have made sense to mention it then, as opposed to highlighting his English-speaking only in 1895.

All the best,
Ben

[FrankO]

I understand where you and Errata are coming from and the differences you ascribe to MO and Psychological reasons. My point is that the same person can kill for those different psychological reasons. Its the capacity to murder, for whatever reason, that is the main point I am making.
Chapman may have different "deep" reasons for murdering different kinds of women.

Hi Ab,

I understand what you’re saying, but I just don’t think the 2 sets of murders are compatible. They are in fact very different.

The short time span of Ripper murders suggest a compulsion killer, while the poison murders obviously indicate a very patient killer. The Ripper murders don’t suggest a killer who was interested in causing pain to living persons and seeing them suffer, while Chapman’s murders do obviously suggest this. Chapman didn’t get his hands dirty as he used ‘clean’ poison, while the Ripper used a knife to cut open his female victims and pull out organs and intestines.

And this all happened over 10 years apart with no known murders between the Ripper and poison series by Chapman. To me, the 2 sets are so far apart that I find it unlikely to have been committed by the same hand. The way I see it is that Chapman killed just because he could, the Ripper rather killed because he had to.

All the best,
Frank

[HelenaWojtczak]

Natalie: But there might be a problem here .Why would Severin converse in English with a fellow Pole like Wolff Levisohn?Surely he spoke Polish or as he says 'Yiddish' with him[/I].

Norma, I've had one of those "DUH?" moments.

You are dead right and I don't know why I didn't twig this earlier - how could Levisohn pass any comment on Seweryn's command of English when they spoke in Polish or Yiddish? Unless Seweryn TOLD him during one of his conversations that he could not speak English (that is possible).

Franko: The way I see it is that Chapman killed just because he could, the Ripper rather killed because he had to.

Not necessarily. I think that's a bit sweeping -- "Chapman killed just because he could" --- after all, any one of us could kill our nearest and dearest, but we don't.

So Frank what do you think Chapman's motive was in killing three consecutive girlfriends, each of whom he could have simply abandoned/deserted, if his motive was to extricate himself from the relationship?

[Errata]

But there might be a problem here .Why would Severin converse in English with a fellow Pole like Wolff Levisohn?Surely he spoke Polish or as he says 'Yiddish' with him.

So, I think the "or as he says 'Yiddish'" bit seems a little strange. Not in content but in phrasing. The sentence seems sort of constructed in a way that would either suggest that Polish and Yiddish are the same thing or interchangeable, or that Yiddish is another word for Polish.

And I feel confident that you know this, but just in case, Yiddish is a completely separate language. Fluency in one does not convey fluency in the other. As Chapman was not in fact Jewish, I cannot for he life of me imagine why he would speak Yiddish.

[HelenaWojtczak]

As Chapman was not in fact Jewish, I cannot for he life of me imagine why he would speak Yiddish.

Because from age 15 he lived for almost five years with a Jewish family in Zwolen - the Rapaports and their large brood of children. At that age, one picks up languages really quickly and I'll wager he was pretty fluent by the time he left, in spoken Yiddish if not written. On arrival in London he found himself among thousands of Jews, some of course spoke his mother tongue, Polish, but many others spoke only German or Russian.

Why would he not speak Yiddish with them?

[Natalie Severn]

So, I think the "or as he says 'Yiddish'" bit seems a little strange. Not in content but in phrasing. The sentence seems sort of constructed in a way that would either suggest that Polish and Yiddish are the same thing or interchangeable, or that Yiddish is another word for Polish.

And I feel confident that you know this, but just in case, Yiddish is a completely separate language. Fluency in one does not convey fluency in the other. As Chapman was not in fact Jewish, I cannot for he life of me imagine why he would speak Yiddish.

Yes,he is said to have spoken Yiddish by several people,Errata.It would have helped where he worked in the East End .In Swolen, half the population spoke Yiddish,so presumably he acquired it there as Helena says.
Norma

[FrankO]

So Frank what do you think Chapman's motive was in killing three consecutive girlfriends, each of whom he could have simply abandoned/deserted, if his motive was to extricate himself from the relationship?

Hi Helena,

My guess would be that his main motivator was to get the 500 pound legacy, probably in combination with the notion that he was fed up with Mary Spink. Obviously he was a sadistic manipulator and killing her by poisoning with tartar-emetic would be the ultimate thing he could do as such. My guess is that he killed his next victims because he had the taste of it, because he got fed up with them too and just because he could, thinking that he wouldn’t be caught as he was far too clever.

All the best,
Frank

[Natalie Severn]

But Severin Klosowski was clearly up to something when he was asking Wolff Levisohn as far back as 1888 if he could obtain an illegal medicine for him for possession of which 'he could get twelve years!'

[Errata]

Because from age 15 he lived for almost five years with a Jewish family in Zwolen - the Rapaports and their large brood of children.

Jesus he lived in Zwolen? Radom and the surrounds (Zwolen being in the surrounds) went from a 40% Jewish population before WWII, to a 0. Not a single surviving Jew is known to have come from there.

I sort of always wonder about this apprenticeship, because there are a bunch of sort of tiny little problems with it. Nothing damning, but enough that it seems really odd. Not impossible, just odd. Like the name Rappaport, and being apprenticed in the Pale, and the age, and you sort of need anywhere between 5 and 10 exceptions to the rule in order for it to be true. Which isn't impossible, but it makes me sort of curious as to where this information comes from. Which I've also never been able to figure out, because these kinds of records in Poland should not exist.


So I question. I'm not full on doubting yet, but I question.

[Adam Went]

Hey all,

As has already been said, one could understand why he wouldn't be conversing in a language which was foreign to him with Wolff Levisohn.

There may well be something in the fact that the witnesses, when overhearing any snippets of conversation between the victim and their supposed killer, only described very basic phrases being used - "will you?" for instance.

Even if Chapman had only been in the East End for a few months, dealing with locals on a daily basis would mean that he would have heard the same basic phrases being repeated again and again and thus would have picked up at least a small knowledge of English.

I know I wouldn't go to a barber who couldn't understand what I was telling him....

Cheers,
Adam.

[Errata]

I'm not entirely sure anyone really appreciates just how hard it is to kill someone with antimony. Too much and they throw it back up, way too much and they are dead within three days. Too little and you keep them in perpetual illness until their liver or kidneys crap out several years down the line. And ingesting it makes it extra difficult, because antimony reacts very badly with acid. Badly enough to put you back at dead within a couple days.

It's actually dicey enough that I have a hard time believing his first victim was actually his first victim. The allure of antimony was that at the time, no one really understood the poisoning process, couldn't treat it and couldn't detect it until quite a bit after death. Arsenic, cyanide (prussic acid), strychnine, these were known. Not antimony.

I've had antimony poisoning. It really really sucks. Worse than cyanide poisoning, which at least gives you visuals. (I used to be a jeweler. Literally everything you might need to kill a man in one little not terribly well ventilated room) It's one of those things where you feel so terrible you are afraid you AREN'T going to die. It's a really terrible way to die, and it takes a special kind of sadist to enjoy watching someone puke to death.

He had to have practiced. I'm sure of it.